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GoreBulbs(tm); ...congress' act
Topic Started: Dec 30 2007, 09:28 PM (1,134 Views)
The 89th Key
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I heard that in one of the bills recently passed by congress, that the current incandescent light bulbs will have to be phased out in a couple years making the new compact fluorescent light bulbs the norm.

As a general question, how is this any of the government's business? I understand and support the government stepping into business or consumer matters when there is a clear risk or practice going on that needs to be stopped...but I hardly think this situation calls for government intrusion. Am I wrong to think that this is not the government's role and that even though these new bulbs are pretty great (last longer, uses less energy, etc), they have no right or even an obligation to dictate that current incandescent light bulbs aren't allowed to be sold any more??

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George K
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Finally
Though I don't have an answer to your question - I'll leave that to the legal eagles here - I have a corollary question that's a bit more practical. What happens to those of us that use floodlights? I think there are CFL equivalents for that, but what if you have them on dimmers? My understanding is that you can't put CFL's on dimmer switches.
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Phlebas
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The 89th Key
Dec 30 2007, 09:28 PM
Goebels ...congress' act

It's about time.

Seriously, as George said, they don't work with dimmers.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

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ivorythumper
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They also don't work with photo sensitive switches and motion activated switches -- they burn out very quickly. :veryangry:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Frank_W
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They are utter sh*t.

Someone needs to duct tape iGore's mouth shut.
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CTPianotech
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Since the Constitution clearly gives them the authority to decide how much water our toilets can hold, surely this is within their power as well.
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JBryan
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These bulbs do very little to solve a problem we are not even really certain we have and, in exchange, will represent a very real environmental hazard when millions of them find their way into every day use. Am I the only one who finds this irrational?
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There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


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George K
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But, but, but....

They use less electricity.
They last forever (well, years, at least)
They give off less heat.
They make me feel better.

Those are all good reasons, no?

That should be enough - especially #4.
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
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Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
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QuirtEvans
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I thought I read somewhere that the new generation of CFLs solves the dimmer switch problem.

As to whether they can do it, of course they can. It's part of energy conservation, and energy conservation is part of our national security. Or hadn't you heard?

As to whether they should do it, that's a different story entirely. Perhaps they should just put a tax on the incandescents sufficient to make them carbon-neutral.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Here's the story, 89th.

Quote:
 
Congress is getting close to passing an energy bill that contains a little-known provision designed to phase out the 125-year-old incandescent light bulb in the next four to 12 years. Instead the future will be lit with next generation energy-efficient lighting, as USA Today reports.

Under the measure, all light bulbs must use 25% to 30% less energy than today's products by 2012 to 2014. The phase-in will start with 100-watt bulbs in 2012 and end with 40-watt bulbs in 2014. By 2020, bulbs must be 70% more efficient.

Compact fluorescent bulbs already meet that 70% efficiency standard. They also last six to 10 times longer than incandescents. Compact fluorescents now cost around $2, vs. about 50 cents for an incandescent. Halogen bulbs, specially designed energy-saving incandescents and the emerging light-emitting diodes (LEDs).

The new rules are expected to save consumers $40 billion in energy and other costs from 2012 to 2030, avoid construction of 14 coal-fired power plants, and cut global-warming emissions by at least 51 million tons of carbon annually, according to the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy.

The move to ban the bulb isn't wholly surprising, given similar announcements by Australia, Canada and Ireland, as well as discussions in the European Union and New Zealand. California legislators have discussed a possible state-wide ban.

Any mandatory changes to consumer behavior is going to rankle some critics. But looking back in history, most become widely accepted and appreciated in time for their wide benefits to society. Think of leaded gasoline, radium dinner plates, mercury thermometers, seat belts and child-proof containers.


http://www.thedailygreen.com/green-homes/e...ulbs-ban-461217
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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George K
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One of the concerns about CFL's has been the mercury. Granted, the small amount of mercury in one bulb that breaks in your house now and then is not a big deal. But, when we start landfilling millions of these things, what happens? Has that been worked out?
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
I don't know about mercury. Here's a U.S. News & World Report article. Of particular interest:

Quote:
 
if you have dimmable light fixtures, make sure to buy CFLs labeled "dimmable."


http://www.usnews.com/articles/business/ec...we-know-it.html
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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George K
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I found similar sources, thanks Quirt. I have recessed lights in my ceilings, and most of them are on dimmers. I was unable to find dimmable CFL floods. I'm sure it's only a matter of time.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Here's what that story says about mercury:

Quote:
 
By the way, don't think that incandescent bulbs are mercury free. In the United States, the chances are at least 50 percent that their light is generated by a coal-powered plant featuring mercury as well as other types of pollution. Popular Mechanics recently crunched the numbers to find that even if the mercury in a CFL was directly released into the atmosphere, an incandescent would still contribute almost double that amount of mercury into the environment over its lifetime.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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George K
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Never Mind...
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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QuirtEvans
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George K
Dec 31 2007, 09:26 AM

Doesn't matter. I'm waiting for LEDs. I hate the light quality from CFLs, even the lower Kelvin ones that are supposedly redder.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
An interesting blogsquib on LEDs:

Quote:
 
When I extolled the virtues of LED lights for the holidays despite their additional cost, most of the sets I found online were $15 for 100 lights. But sustainability engineer Pablo Paster is a better shopper. In his Ask Pablo blog, he says he found them at Costco for as little as $7.39.

Also, the Electric Power Research Institute, the utility industry's research arm, did testing at their Living Laboratory for Energy Efficiency in Knoxville, Tenn., and documented energy savings much higher than the 80 to 90 percent figure most people use. EPRI says Chevy Chase's Clark Griswold character in the 1989 movie Christmas Vacation, who lit his house with 25,000 bulbs, could have cut his electricity bill from $2,400 to $50 had he used energy-efficient C9 LED bulbs. By the way, his upfront cost, if he could have gotten them at Costco at the same price Paster found, would have been $1,847.50. So Chevy/Clark would have had his payback ($502.50 in savings, actually) in one joyful season.


http://www.usnews.com/blogs/beyond-the-bar...n-brighter.html

Can you tell that I REALLY REALLY don't want to start cleaning for my New Year's Eve party? :biggrin:
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
QuirtEvans
Dec 31 2007, 08:23 AM
Here's what that story says about mercury:

Quote:
 
By the way, don't think that incandescent bulbs are mercury free. In the United States, the chances are at least 50 percent that their light is generated by a coal-powered plant featuring mercury as well as other types of pollution. Popular Mechanics recently crunched the numbers to find that even if the mercury in a CFL was directly released into the atmosphere, an incandescent would still contribute almost double that amount of mercury into the environment over its lifetime.

This assumes that the percentage of our electricity produced by coal fired plants will remain constant or that nothing will be done in the future to reduce their emissions of mercury, both rather faulty assumptions. Indeed, the EPA is working right now to drastically reduce such emissions.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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RosemaryTwo
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HOLY CARP!!!
I agree, Quirt, my complaint is about the quality of light. My house feels orange under the flourescent lights, and it depresses me. Seriously.

I am relying on American ingenuity to invent a flourescent bulb that emits quality light; looks attractive in exposed outlets, and can be dimmed.

I assume all of this can/will happen, but I am not happy about the current flourescent choices that I see for sale.
"Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
RosemaryTwo
Dec 31 2007, 09:57 AM
I agree, Quirt, my complaint is about the quality of light. My house feels orange under the flourescent lights, and it depresses me. Seriously.

I am relying on American ingenuity to invent a flourescent bulb that emits quality light; looks attractive in exposed outlets, and can be dimmed.

I assume all of this can/will happen, but I am not happy about the current flourescent choices that I see for sale.

George posted a link a while back where you could order LED light bulbs online.

I keep meaning to try one. They're expensive, but the energy savings is substantial, and they are supposed to last forever. I even asked at the hardware store about them, thinking I'd try one out, but of course the local hardware store doesn't carry them yet.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
JBryan
Dec 31 2007, 06:35 AM

This assumes that the percentage of our electricity produced by coal fired plants will remain constant or that nothing will be done in the future to reduce their emissions of mercury, both rather faulty assumptions. Indeed, the EPA is working right now to drastically reduce such emissions.

Well, sort of. What do you mean by "working"?
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
LED lighting makes a lot more sense to me. We have already been using them on communications towers because of their long life (it costs a lot to get someone to climb up there and replace them). I cannot imagine any adverse environmental impacts over and above incandescants as they are, basically, a hunk of silicon. They do cost more but that cost will very likely come down until their longer life would be offsetting or better.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Aqua Letifer
Dec 31 2007, 09:08 AM
JBryan
Dec 31 2007, 06:35 AM

This assumes that the percentage of our electricity produced by coal fired plants will remain constant or that nothing will be done in the future to reduce their emissions of mercury, both rather faulty assumptions. Indeed, the EPA is working right now to drastically reduce such emissions.

Well, sort of. What do you mean by "working"?

What do you mean by ""working"" or can you elaborate beyond a snarky aside?
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
JBryan
Dec 31 2007, 07:12 AM

What do you mean by ""working"" or can you elaborate beyond a snarky aside?

Well, snarky asides are my thing, d00d. However, I can elaborate.

The Clear Skies Act of 2003, which took some work to create I suppose, doesn't introduce stricter requirements on emissions. It actually weakens them. Specifically, it allows for more mercury emissions than would be present if the Clean Air Act were fully enforced.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Moreover, given the EPA's recent rejection of California's efforts to establish tougher emissions standards, it's unclear that the Bush Administration EPA is actually in favor of cleaner air.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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