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What do people on an internet forum owe each other
Topic Started: Dec 28 2007, 03:00 AM (2,170 Views)
Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
I don't subscribe to the theory that the internet is a second rate way of communicating with each other. People wrote letters for centuries and nobody ever complained that they could not hear the tone in each other's voices. I also don't view it as a cosmic pick up joint for face to face friends. I maintain that part of the experience is disappearing and appearing in each other's lives and otherwise not having the expectations people would have in everyday life. This is a negative aspect of it in my opinion, along with the fact that people on the internet are free to present themselves as people they are not, and to engage in patterns of behavior that would arguably be criminal in other contexts. I suppose the cliche 'you have to take the good with the bad' is an apt one.
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
Daniel
Dec 28 2007, 11:17 PM
I maintain that part of the experience is disappearing and appearing in each other's lives and otherwise not having the expectations people would have in everyday life.

Well said, Daniel. And I agree, there's a real freedom to express yourself, without having the day to day expectations. I think that's one of the reasons I like this place. I have so many day to day responsibilities, expectations, phone calls I have to answer, problems to resolve....it's nice to just talk when I have the time, check in when it's convenient. A good crowd. :smile:
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Thank you, Sue. I appreciate you saying that. I meant more in the context of "isn't it strange X person disappeared and I wish they'd come back and I feel I have no control of that-- because I don't" but the flip side of not being obligated must surely be worth a lot. Next year I am going to try to post less and accomplish more. I do appreciate being able to express myself though. That means a lot to me. I imagine it means a lot to everyone here. :smile:

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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
Daniel
Dec 28 2007, 11:26 PM
Next year I am going to try to post less and accomplish more. :smile:

yah, yah, yah, don't we all say (think we should do) that?! me included, for sure. :lol2:
:hug:
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
:lol:
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OperaTenor
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Pisa-Carp
Free Rider
Dec 28 2007, 04:25 PM
Daniel
Dec 28 2007, 09:07 AM
"Because of the ease and speed of transmission, the internet is to communication as a microwave oven is to a baked potato."

:lol2:

I disagree.

Face to face conversation allows us to hear the person's tone of voice, the expression on their face, their body language. In fact...only a small percentage of what we communicate is through words themselves.

On the web that's all you get and you have to painstakingly type it all out. It takes forever just to be misunderstood! :silly:

I'm with you, FR. There needs to be the whole context of expression to go along with the immediacy of this form of communication in order to avoid the polarization that stems from the unavoidable broad interpretation of what is typed.

Quote:
 
Daniel said:
I don't subscribe to the theory that the internet is a second rate way of communicating with each other. People wrote letters for centuries and nobody ever complained that they could not hear the tone in each other's voices. I also don't view it as a cosmic pick up joint for face to face friends. I maintain that part of the experience is disappearing and appearing in each other's lives and otherwise not having the expectations people would have in everyday life. This is a negative aspect of it in my opinion, along with the fact that people on the internet are free to present themselves as people that they are not, and to engage in patterns of behavior that would arguably be criminal in other contexts. I suppose the cliche 'you have to take the good with the bad' is an apt one.


I feel comparing this to letter writing is a poor parallel. I think the slower, more arduous process of composing, writing and posting a letter confers much more gravity and formality, and what is said in a letter tends to be more circumspect as a result. This is much closer to conversational communication, where we can amend what we say much more quickly, and can afford to be more glib about what we say, due to the ease of articulating on this medium. Therein lies the rub, because we're back at needing the context of the visual and aural to moderate what we "hear", and to temper our responses.

I feel we're mostly unaware of that need in this medium, and that's where formal moderation comes into the picture, and, in the absence of it, flame wars.

Case in point: Daniel, in all honesty, would you be able to tell Larry that you wished he'd die - and mean it - to his face?

PS. For me, this realization has completely changed the way I interact on line. I feel that's a good thing, as I wish to endeavor to be constructive in all of my dealings with others.



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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
OT, it's clear that you and I don't see/ experience the internet the same way.

I agree with you that it is like conversing in 'real time' but I disagree with your characterization of it as lacking. Because it is a writing based medium, not a spoken one, I do not judge it based on the standards one might have for face to face conversation. It is writing and communicating in 'real time', and this is why I think it is unique, and why I like it.

As for Larry, I've made a personal decision not to enter into discussions about Larry on this board. If we had formal moderation on this board, then there might be some point in doing so, but in the absence of that, it is, indeed, another opportunity to have a flame war. Certainly this is nothing personal toward you. BTW, please check your PM's at the other place.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Would the speed and ease of communications change the nature of our interaction here?

Try this thought experiment:

Imagine every time you try to post, your message is stored on the server but not displayed to others for the next 24 hours -- and, after that, you have to log in and explicitly review and approve what you tried to post before before it is really posted.

How many fewer posts would you bother to make in the first place? Of those you composed, how many would you retract when asked to review/approve after at least a 24-hour lapse?
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
Try this thought experiment:

Imagine every time you try to post, your message is stored on the server but not displayed to others for the next 24 hours -- and, after that, you have to log in and explicitly review and approve what you tried to post before before it is really posted.


That's what they did to me at WTF, except it wasn't me who reviewed and approved what I'd written, it was Cindy. And if she didn't agree with what I said, it didn't get posted.

Quote:
 
How many fewer posts would you bother to make in the first place?


That was of course, the whole point.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
As for Larry, I've made a personal decision not to enter into discussions about Larry on this board.


Ah, Daniel..... ever the victim...
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
Larry
Dec 29 2007, 07:50 AM
Quote:
 
Try this thought experiment:

Imagine every time you try to post, your message is stored on the server but not displayed to others for the next 24 hours -- and, after that, you have to log in and explicitly review and approve what you tried to post before before it is really posted.


That's what they did to me at WTF, except it wasn't me who reviewed and approved what I'd written, it was Cindy. And if she didn't agree with what I said, it didn't get posted.

Quote:
 
How many fewer posts would you bother to make in the first place?


That was of course, the whole point.

Liar.

Shall we review what Jodi said? Or are you calling HER a liar now?

jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Shut the f*ck up, Jack. I'm not lying. That's what happened. Your little clique purposely tried to stifle me, and made up lies about why they did it. Jodi was the only one who even tried to be fair.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Free Rider
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Fulla-Carp
OT
That's what I was trying to say.

I have a hard time writing first drafts that ring true and clear. Only after re-hashing my thoughts a few times do I eventually get close.

But I wasn't refering to web communication vs letter writing. I was refering to web vs face to face...where all manner of other things help us sort out what it is that people are communicating.

For example sacasm doesn't work as well on the internet, because the non-verbal and tone of voice are what really conveys that.
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Axtremus
Dec 29 2007, 04:30 AM
Would the speed and ease of communications change the nature of our interaction here?

Try this thought experiment:

Imagine every time you try to post, your message is stored on the server but not displayed to others for the next 24 hours -- and, after that, you have to log in and explicitly review and approve what you tried to post before before it is really posted.

How many fewer posts would you bother to make in the first place? Of those you composed, how many would you retract when asked to review/approve after at least a 24-hour lapse?

I think that this would work for some people like myself who have a quick temper and a conscience.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Posted Image
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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kathyk
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Larry
Dec 29 2007, 04:53 AM
Quote:
 
As for Larry, I've made a personal decision not to enter into discussions about Larry on this board.


Ah, Daniel..... ever the victim...



Quote:
 
Try this thought experiment:

Imagine every time you try to post, your message is stored on the server but not displayed to others for the next 24 hours -- and, after that, you have to log in and explicitly review and approve what you tried to post before before it is really posted.


That's what they did to me at WTF, except it wasn't me who reviewed and approved what I'd written, it was Cindy. And if she didn't agree with what I said, it didn't get posted.

Quote:
 
How many fewer posts would you bother to make in the first place?


That was of course, the whole point.

:wink:
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Larry
Dec 29 2007, 09:22 AM
Shut the f*ck up, Jack. I'm not lying. That's what happened. Your little clique purposely tried to stifle me, and made up lies about why they did it. Jodi was the only one who even tried to be fair.

Jodi said you were wrong. You can persist in your persecution complex, if you wish, but Jodi said you were wrong.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
OK, if you assholes insist, let's just go over the whole thing.

I posted on WTF. I didn't say a G*D DAMNED THING out of line.

Cindy didn't like what I said, so to silence me she put me on prescreened status, and came up with some ridiculous trumped up examples to support her decision. The examples have been posted, comments were made as to just how stupid those excuses were.

I raised hell.

They were shamed into taking me off prescreened status.

Again, I posted for a good while, and never said anything out of line.

Again, Cindy didn't like something I said, and came up with more ridiculous "examples" of me violating their rules for an excuse to once again silence me by putting me on prescreened status.

Only this time, she wouldn't post anything I wrote. She just ignored me. Her intent was for me to just give up and go away.

She put me in the back of the bus.

Jodi was the ONLY ONE who would put my posts up.

I asked repeatedly to either show me where keeping me on prescreened status was justified, or remove me from prescreen status. I was told that it was Cindy's decision, and that was pretty much the end of the discussion.

So after giving them MONTHS to stop treating me differently than they treat others - and don't tell me they treated others that way, because they've even discussed the fact that for anyone else prescreening is to be used *only* temporarily to allow heated discussions to cool down - not to put them there and leave them - after literally MONTHS of this, I created a sock puppet.

Several people there have sock puppets.

My sock puppet didn't break any rules of conduct.

Jodi sent me an email welcoming me.

I sent Jodi an email telling her I was probably going to stop posting.

I never told Jodi I *wasn't* me, I never said anything to her other than that I (sock puppet) was going to stop posting.

YOU (Quirt, Kathy, Jack) hounded the sock puppet and made a big deal out of it - because *YOU* didn't like what he said.

None of you have shown that same curiosity about any other new posters who show themselves to be of the group mindset.

Jodi chose to view my creation of a sock puppet as a bad thing, and wrote her post here. I'm sorry she took that stance, but she is mistaken about several things, and not remembering some things correctly.

The end result however, is this:
1. There is no rule against having a sock puppet.
2. Twice I was denied the right to post based on trumped up claims of violating the rules.
3. I did not break their precious rules ONCE - and neither did the sock puppet.
4. If you disagree with the leftwing mindset there, particularly if you piss off Cindy, you will be run over, you will be bullied, and you will not be welcome.

It's a clique of like minded lefties who come about as close to communist mentality as you can get.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Jack Frost
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Quote:
 
Jack's telling the truth, Larry.

...

If you think the only person that has tried to be fair to you in this whole matter is me, you are sorely mistaken. Your statement that the only person that would approve your posts at the end was me is flat out wrong. And you'd be surprised at who was the most adamant about NOT kicking you out. It wasn't me. It was the one you have seemed hell bent on badmouthing ever since we left the OCR. Man, if it were me, and I read those nasty things that spew out of your keyboard about me, I'd have banned you in a heartbeat a long time ago.

I've never figured out why you feel the need to post over at WTF. Your feelings of contempt for that place and its members come across so strongly when you post here and on your board that it just doesn't make any sense. You never join in on the fun threads. You show your nice guy side here, and you seem to only want to argue over there. You get aggressive, you get personal, and when people really argue with you, you get mean, and you make threats. You seem to want the last word, and I'm not sure I've ever seen you admit when you're wrong. It's no wonder that people react to you as strongly as they do.

...

And it's hell trying to moderate someone who pushes the envelope all the time like you do.

I've always been one of your great defenders, Larry. I've tried to be fair. I know you won't believe me when I tell you that the others have bent over backwards for you as well. But you'd better believe me when I tell you that you lost me as an ally when you pulled the Rickj stunt.

...

So now you need to deal with the fact that you are no longer welcome over there. You need to quit with this thread and all of this ugliness. You need to get over it, and you need to move on.

Jodi




Larry, you seem to think if you lie enough people will accept your version as truth. Perhaps you fool yourself. Your ongoing obsession with this stuff is a sign of a personalilty disorder.

I only bring it up because you did. I am not comfortable letting your smear of Cindy go unchallenged because others start to believe it. She is not here to defend herself (and has too much class to stoop to your level anyway).

jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Aside from all the ways in which Jodi, who is an absolutely unimpeachable source, rips Larry's story apart, let me add this:

Everyone (except me, apparently) knew "Rick" was Larry from the beginning. I thought he was just another nasty, sarcastic type, until others started pointing out the obvious similarities in posting style.

"Rick", of course, denied that he was Larry, denied that he knew who Larry was, etc. In other words, he lied ... repeatedly. Yes, Larry-who-never-lies lied over and over again when he claimed, as Rick, that he wasn't Larry.

Apparently, Larry got panicked at the thought that everyone could see through his sockpuppet, and so he starting creating stories out of whole cloth. The one I remember was a thread HE started asking for advice on buying a piano. Idiot that I am, I gave him the limited amount of honest advice that I could. Others did as well. It turns out he was yanking everyone's chain.

Larry can't bear the thought that he was wrong about anything, but he lied, over and over again.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Both of you assholes can go f*ck yourselves. I'm not "smearing" Cindy - I'm telling you what happened. You both want to revise history, and you're both nothing more than apologists. And as for you Quirt, Mr. "freedom of speech", Mr. "censorship is bad", you have absolutely no credibility left on that front.

I'm sorry Jodi took things the way she did. But she is *wrong*. Tough.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
Larry
Dec 29 2007, 11:59 AM
Both of you assholes can go f*ck yourselves.

Hey Quirt, do you think Larry is getting kind of predictable?

jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
I think *you* are getting kind of predictable, Jack. And you do it so poorly.

I want the two of you to keep it up, though. It will give me an excuse to start another thread detailing the whole affair so we can all have another discussion about the high handed and unwelcoming attitude of WTF.

Go ahead. Give me a reason.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
The old law school adage applies to Larry:

If you can't argue the law, argue the facts. If you can't argue the facts, attack the other person.

Knowing he can't deal with the first option, Larry skips to step 2, or often straight to step 3.

Go ahead, Larry. Tell me about how you were telling the truth when you denied that "Rick" knew who Larry was. Tell me about how honest and truthful you were being when you started that thread about wanting piano-buying advice.

You screwed around with an entire board, and you got tossed out on your ass. Sounds like justice to me.

And it has nothing to do with your politics. Copper is far right of center, and I haven't heard of him being put on pre-moderated status over there. It has everything to do with your antisocial personality.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Since Larry is incapable of acknowledging reality, let's put it in nice big letters:

Quote:
 
[size=8]Jodi was the ONLY ONE who would put my posts up.[/size]


And Jodi's response, which Larry refuses to acknowledge:

Quote:
 
[size=8]Your statement that the only person that would approve your posts at the end was me is flat out wrong.[/size]
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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