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The Concord Monitor's Anti-Endorsement; Don't Vote For Romney!
Topic Started: Dec 23 2007, 01:43 PM (542 Views)
QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Daniel, why are you arguing with a sockpuppet?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Daniel
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Daniel
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QuirtEvans
Dec 24 2007, 02:20 AM
Daniel, why are you arguing with a sockpuppet?

:wave2:
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Larry
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o, Claude-Larry, you actually replaced the word "African", not the word "black", and you missed the whole point of this paragraph. Here:


Daniel, are you really, I mean - are you *really* so lacking in your ability to reason that you think a church for blacks, about blacks, focused on blacks, is suddenly using the word African in a context other than blacks?

And once again, you've dodged my question. So I'm going to aks it again -

If a white candidate belonged to a church with a mission statement celebrating their "whiteness", would that be racist?

YES OR NO, Daniel. Don't rattle off reams of someone else's thoughts in an effort to avoid the question. Just give me your answer.

I'll tell you what the answer is, Daniel. If Huckabee belonged to a church that celebrated its Whiteness, there would be an uprising among the media and the democrat party and all the lemmings like you calling the man a racist unfit for office, and they would demand that he drop out of the race immediately.

On the other hand, you will defend a black man who belongs to a church that celebrates its Blackness because........

he's a democrat.

It's that simple, Daniel.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Axtremus
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Well, there are quite a few churches for Koreans, about Koreans, and focused on Koreans. Ditto if you substitute "Koreans" with "Japanese" or "Chinese" or, in some cases, down to provincial delineations like "Cantonese" or "Taiwanese". There are also Asian Indian American churches as well. I suppose a case can be made that these are racist churches too, eh? :huh:

How about, say, churches for Native Americans, about Native Americans, and focused on Native Americans (or one for a particular Native American tribe, about a particular Native American tribe, and focused on a particular Native American tribe)? Are these churches racist too?

How about the Polish National Catholic Church of America?

How about the Greek Orthodoxy churches in America?

How about the Russian Orthodoxy churches in America?

Do you consider any of the above racist? Where do you draw the line, and why? :blink:

The point is this: May be, just may be -- there is a legitimate and material difference between "black" and "African," just like there is a difference between "oriental" and Korean/Japanese/Chinese/Asian-Indian, just like there is a difference between "white" and Polish/Greek/Russian, even when it comes to religious congregations.

Certainly feel free to disagree. Though if you do, I'd appreciate it if you'd elaborate on why you disagree.

Merry Christmas, by the way. :)
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Larry
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So you're saying that you have no problem with a Whites Only Church? More specifically, you have no problem with a Whites Only Church that teaches its members they are not to date or marry black people?
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Daniel
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Africentrism (that's the term Trinity prefers to Afrocentrism) is wholeheartedly embraced at Trinity. One of the church's mottos is "Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian." Its choir is regularly decked out in brightly colored African dress, as is Wright when he preaches. The church emphasizes its connection to the African diaspora: it sponsors trips to western and southern Africa, the Caribbean, and Latin American countries with significant African populations. Julia Speller, a leader at Trinity and author of Walkin' the Talk: Keepin' the Faith in Africentric Congregations, notes in her book that the church offers courses in Swahili and that its youth programs, Intonjane and Isuthu, take their names from Swahili words for coming into manhood and womanhood. The congregation celebrates the Kwanzaa holiday and Umoja Karamu, a Thanksgiving Day service that narrates the story of the black family from its West African origins to today with dancing, drumming and storytelling.

Bible courses at Trinity emphasize the African roots of Christianity, focusing on the account of the Exodus and such passages as the psalmist's promise that Ethiopia would stretch out its hands to God (Ps. 68:31), and the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8. In his preaching Wright goes out of his way to describe Moses as "an African prince" and his wife as a "raven-black" beauty. He declares that Jesus himself had "nappy hair" and "bronze skin" (he cites Rev. 1:14-15). Otis Moss III, who will succeed Wright upon his retirement this summer, says that the church is proud of its "Africanity," proud that "when we talk about Sudan, we have Sudanese present."

African Americans have generated distinctly black forms of Christianity since they arrived on these shores. The significance of these forms has been appreciated in mainline seminaries and churches for at least two generations. Trinity is well within the mainstream of the black church, and is remarkable in the mainline world only for its size and influence and for its handful of celebrity members, like Oprah Winfrey and hip-hop artist Common.


I'm sorry but Afrocentrism and white supremacy have nothing to do with each other. You can play all the word games you want. I'm sure YOU don't have a political motivation for saying something untrue. :lol2:

Merry Christmas. :angel:
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Larry
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I'm sorry but Afrocentrism and white supremacy have nothing to do with each other.


Oh, but *you* are the only one using the term "white supremacy", Daniel. So what you are saying is that focusing on being black is not racist, but focusing on being white *is* racist. If you're going to be fair here, you'd have to call the Whites Only Church "Eurocentrist". You're saying the Trinity church isn't being racist, it's just focusing on the members' blackness. So by extension, the church I'm talking about isn't being racist, it's just focusing on its members whiteness.

But *you* chose to call that being White Supremist - which means, you would (and in fact just did) call the church I asked you about racist.

Here's a news flash for you, Daniel. You're right. If a church built its foundation on being "eurocentrist", focusing on the members' whiteness, and taught their membership they are not to date or marry anyone except other whites, that would be racist.

And that's what Trinity teaches, Daniel. So - they're racist.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Daniel
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Claude Ball
Dec 23 2007, 10:06 PM
Which one of them papers has wrote a story about Osama bein' a member of that Black Supremest church?

This is what you wrote and your intention was clearly to substitute the word Black for White as your later posts made abundantly clear. You have not found one word to support anything you have said. Yet you continue with your smear.

You are talking about Congregationalists. The United Church of Christ is hardly some kind of racist cult.

Blacks are a minority group, as Ax points out, and the fact that they have their own churches should not be a newsflash to you.
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Larry
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You're a dumbass, Daniel. You don't even know what a Congregationalist is. They are not traditional UCC, either. But you're not educated enough to sort that one out.

They tell their members they are not to date or marry white people. That has nothing to do with celebrating their heritage, and *everything* to do with being racist. The UCC does not teach their white congregations to be white separatists, and to not date or marry blacks. This church does. So, while you want to make excuses for them because you are a political moron who supports Osama, the fact remains that this church teaches their members to be racist. There are lots of black churches that celebrate their heritage without being exclusionary, without being racist. Their racist view are in fact the very reason they are different.

You not having the intelligence to figure that one out is beside the point.

Quote:
 
This is what you wrote and your intention was clearly to substitute the word Black for White as your later posts made abundantly clear.


Good grief...... of *course* that was my intention, Moron. I made it quite clear that was my intention. That was the whole point... ah what the hell. You're too stupid to even understand what I was getting at.
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Daniel
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Hannity guest on Obama's church: Its "scary doctrine" is "something that you'd see in more like a cult"
Tax Deductible Donations to Media Matters

On the February 28 edition of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, during a segment discussing the Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, the church to which Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) belongs, co-host Sean Hannity stated that "many" call Trinity "separatist," adding that "in some cases, even drawing comparisons to a cult." Guest Erik Rush, a columnist for the conservative website WorldNetDaily, said that the church's "scary doctrine" is "something that you'd see in more like a cult or an Aryan Brethren Church or something like that." Just the day before, Hannity -- referring to former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney ® -- had claimed: "We created a new religious litmus test. This is very troublesome to me, and no other candidate is getting that scrutiny."

Referring to "The Black Value System," which is advocated by Trinity, Rush stated: "I would go beyond saying that they're Afrocentric. They're African-centric. They refer to themselves as an African people, and that somewhat disturbs me from the viewpoint of, well, do they consider themselves Americans? Do they consider themselves Christians? Are they worshipping Christ? Are they worshipping African things black? Well, I mean, what is it?" Later in the segment, when co-host Alan Colmes asked: "Are you questioning Barack Obama's Christianity?" Rush responded simply: "Yeah."

In fact, Trinity refers to itself as "Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian," while the "Black Value System" encourages parishioners to be "soldiers for Black freedom and the dignity of all humankind." As Media Matters for America has previously noted, a February 6 Chicago Tribune article stated that the church's "value system" was adopted in 1981 to hold "black Christians accountable for taking care of their own and for continuing to fight oppression." In an interview, Obama reportedly told the Tribune, "If I say to anybody in Iowa -- white, black, Hispanic or Asian -- that my church believes in the African-American community strengthening families or adhering to the black work ethic or being committed to self-discipline and self-respect and not forgetting where you came from, I don't think that's something anybody would object to. ... I think I'd get a few amens."

Addressing conservative criticism of the "value system," Obama also reportedly told the Tribune, "Commitment to God, black community, commitment to the black family, the black work ethic, self-discipline and self-respect. ...Those are values that the conservative movement in particular has suggested are necessary for black advancement." He added, "So I would be puzzled that they would object or quibble with the bulk of a document that basically espouses profoundly conservative values of self-reliance and self-help."

From the February 28 edition of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes:

HANNITY: So, as the election season kicks into high gear, we have been repeatedly reminded of Mitt Romney's affiliation with the Mormon church, Latter Day Saints.

However, new information has recently come to light regarding the Trinity Unity [sic] Church in Chicago. That's the one that Senator Barack Obama calls home. Trinity Church's congregation subscribes to a 10-point list, which they refer to as, quote, "Afrocentric." Now, a closer look at the church's vision has led many to call them separatist and, in some cases, even drawing comparisons to a cult.

Joining us now with more on the Trinity Union Church is columnist Erik Rush.

Erik, thank you for being with us, my friend. Appreciate it.

RUSH: Thank you -- pleasure to be here.

HANNITY: Let's -- let's look -- if we look specifically at the 10 items in the church -- for example: commitment to God. Basics, simple -- nobody will disagree.

RUSH: Right.

HANNITY: Commitment to the black community. What if it was a commitment to the white community? Commitment to the white family versus commitment to this church, which says commitment to the black family.

RUSH: Right.

HANNITY: Your thoughts?

RUSH: Well, that -- well, the first thing I did in the column that I wrote was interpolated the words black for white, and I looked at it and suddenly, I was looking at this really scary doctrine, you know. It was something that you'd see in more like a cult or an Aryan Brethren Church or something like that.

I would go beyond saying that they're Afrocentric. They're African-centric. They refer to themselves as an African people, and that somewhat disturbs me from the viewpoint of, well, do they consider themselves Americans? Do they consider themselves Christians? Are they worshipping Christ? Are they worshipping African things black? Well, I mean, what is it?

HANNITY: Well, let me ask you that because, beyond what we just mentioned, you know, the commitment to the black community, the black family, you know, the black work ethic they mentioned in this document, the black community, pledge allegiance to black leadership who embrace the "Black Value System."

RUSH: Right.

HANNITY: You know, if there were a presidential candidate and they were part of a church and, as you point out in your column, you substitute the word "black" for the word "white," there would be an outrage in this country.

RUSH: Yes. Massive

HANNITY: There would be cries of racism in this country.

RUSH: Massive.

HANNITY: Will there -- will this even be a controversy in your view?

RUSH: I think that it could become something of an issue. You know, I've had people flaming me, but I've also had people writing me saying, you know, "What took you guys" -- I guess it means, the media -- "so long to uncover this, because they really are quite cultish, quite separatist?"

COLMES: Mr. Rush, this is Alan Colmes. I have a question. Are you questioning Barack Obama's Christianity?

RUSH: Yeah.

COLMES: Who are you to do that?

RUSH: Anyone just the same as anyone else who can make a discernment about someone's faith.


You should get a job writing for one of these shows, Larry! :lol2:

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Daniel
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Larry
Dec 24 2007, 09:41 PM
You're a dumbass, Daniel. You don't even know what a Congregationalist is. They are not traditional UCC, either. But you're not educated enough to sort that one out.

Don't get stupid. I know exactly what the United Church of Christ is.

Do you? Here's a link to help you out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Church_of_Christ
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Larry
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Daniel, do you believe in the separation of church and state? I mean - do you think churches should stay out of politics?

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Larry
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If you didn't have Google you couldn't wipe your ass, could you Daniel? Such a shame you can't comprehend what you quote from the internet.



Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Daniel
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Where are you going with this?
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Daniel
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Larry
Dec 24 2007, 10:04 PM
If you didn't have Google you couldn't wipe your ass, could you Daniel? Such a shame you can't comprehend what you quote from the internet.

Stop being a jerk. Congregationalists are a Calvinist Protestant group most similar to Presbyterians, except Congregationalists have a different organizational structure. Congregationalists are also famous for founding many colleges and universities in the US including the one I attended. So yes, I know what Congregationalism is. Is there something you want to talk about or do you want to waste your time insulting me?
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Larry
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Daniel
Dec 25 2007, 01:05 AM
Where are you going with this?

Answer the question. Do you believe in the separation of church and state. Do you believe a church should not involve itself in politics.

Answer.

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Larry
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WHAT'S WRONG, DANIEL? CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO GOOGLE AN ANSWER? TRY USING YOUR OWN BRAIN FOR A CHANGE!

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Daniel
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What does you mean- involve itself in politics? Churches involve themselves in politics all the time.

And stop yelling. It's Christmas Eve.
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Larry
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No they don't, Daniel.

Answer the question. You're afraid to, aren't you?

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Daniel
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Churches involve themselves in elections all the time.
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Larry
Dec 23 2007, 10:59 PM
Daniel, just answer the question. You are dodging, and you know it. If one of the Republican candidates belonged to a church that had a mission statement the way I wrote that one, they would be blasted for being racist - and you'd be right in there blasting them. All I did was substitute white for the word Black, and leave out the part about slavery since whites weren't slaves.

The truth is, it is *not* a "false point". It is a very valid point. Did you know that this church does not allow their members to date or marry whites? What if Huckabee said he belonged to a church that didn't allow their members to date or marry blacks?

You are too obvious in your bias, Daniel.

Here's another example - what if a candidate belonged to a church whose mission statement read as follows:

"We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Heterosexual and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the heterosexual religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Heterosexual worship service and ministries which address the Heterosexual Community."

What if Obama belonged to that church, Daniel?

You can't have it both ways, Daniel. You can't say Osama's church is not racist but a church based on the White Experience is racist. That's why you are dodging the question. If you're going to involve yourself in these discussions, do so with some semblance of intellectual honesty.

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You should admit that you were wrong and that it is not a "black supremest" church.


What a childish demand, Daniel. Why should I do that - it *is* a black supremist church.

Drop dead.
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Daniel
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Larry
Dec 24 2007, 09:21 AM
Quote:
 
o, Claude-Larry, you actually replaced the word "African", not the word "black", and you missed the whole point of this paragraph. Here:


Daniel, are you really, I mean - are you *really* so lacking in your ability to reason that you think a church for blacks, about blacks, focused on blacks, is suddenly using the word African in a context other than blacks?

And once again, you've dodged my question. So I'm going to aks it again -

If a white candidate belonged to a church with a mission statement celebrating their "whiteness", would that be racist?

YES OR NO, Daniel. Don't rattle off reams of someone else's thoughts in an effort to avoid the question. Just give me your answer.

I'll tell you what the answer is, Daniel. If Huckabee belonged to a church that celebrated its Whiteness, there would be an uprising among the media and the democrat party and all the lemmings like you calling the man a racist unfit for office, and they would demand that he drop out of the race immediately.

On the other hand, you will defend a black man who belongs to a church that celebrates its Blackness because........

he's a democrat.

It's that simple, Daniel.

Drop dead.
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Daniel
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Larry
Dec 24 2007, 09:41 PM
You're a dumbass, Daniel. You don't even know what a Congregationalist is. They are not traditional UCC, either. But you're not educated enough to sort that one out.

They tell their members they are not to date or marry white people. That has nothing to do with celebrating their heritage, and *everything* to do with being racist. The UCC does not teach their white congregations to be white separatists, and to not date or marry blacks. This church does. So, while you want to make excuses for them because you are a political moron who supports Osama, the fact remains that this church teaches their members to be racist. There are lots of black churches that celebrate their heritage without being exclusionary, without being racist. Their racist view are in fact the very reason they are different.

You not having the intelligence to figure that one out is beside the point.

Quote:
 
This is what you wrote and your intention was clearly to substitute the word Black for White as your later posts made abundantly clear.


Good grief...... of *course* that was my intention, Moron. I made it quite clear that was my intention. That was the whole point... ah what the hell. You're too stupid to even understand what I was getting at.

Drop dead.
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Daniel
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Larry
Dec 24 2007, 10:04 PM
If you didn't have Google you couldn't wipe your ass, could you Daniel? Such a shame you can't comprehend what you quote from the internet.

Drop dead.
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