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Atheistic fundamentalism
Topic Started: Dec 22 2007, 09:02 AM (4,619 Views)
DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
Hi Free! Good to be here, if only for a short period. As soon as school starts again, I will be going 90 miles an hour with the show I'm directing, so I may disappear. I'm not really a "church goer" either. I'm more of a "church haver"...we worship and study with friends in our home for the most part. I guess other people think of my house as "church." Heh...I should probably clean more :unsure:

John, I absolutely agree that if the world sought to live the Christian ideal, things would be better

:lol:

Of course, I also don't think that's any coincidence. For me, it seems truly silly not to accept Scripture as the Word of God. (please notice I prefaced that sentence with "for me) I readily accept that is not the case for a lot of people, even a lot of Christians. It is not as a result of blind acceptance, however, that I think that. I'm kind of a geek. I study for fun; I have done that all my life. Music, art, history, philosophy, theology, and other topics as I become interested. The more I study (both within Scripture and without) the sillier it seems that a God who created all ex-nihilo would not do so with a plan and purpose for that creation, and would abandon it to its own devices once having created it. My hard won, not blindly accepted, understanding of God as Love, Righteousness, Holiness and Truth, excludes any such purposelessness, or lack of desire for fellowship, with regard to his creative work.

I completely agree about argument (debate, not stupid ugly mudslinging, that is not an argument, it's just crass, irrational emoting). What is the point in having a brain if you can't think about what you believe, have it challenged, study, think some more, make decisions, state ideas, counter arguments, be who you are, and say what you think? Sometimes arguments change what you think, sometimes they don't. I enjoy the discussions, I always have.
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
Moonbat
Dec 27 2007, 10:38 AM
Hah Boxingy day over.

Diva your position is completely consistent given that you think the bible is the inerrant word of an omnipotent omniscient all-good creator God.

I don't find you what said offensive at all, indeed it doesn't even suprise me. I often have conversations with peers who express the opposite sentiment they think deep down you guys really know it's not true. That it's a kind of pretense where you are in some sense aware that your ideas of God are imaginary but do not ever allow yourself to really see it. A bit like the way children consider their stuffed animals to be alive in some sense but also know that they aren't really.

They think that it's a kind of willing collusion with yourself. I argue against this conclusion - i think that you guys really do believe what you say believe, i don't think it is pretend, i think to you guys your idea of God feels essentially as real as your ideas of everyday things like tables and chairs and computers. My peers find this exceedingly hard to believe and ultimately it's only because i've spoken to lots of religious people that i have the view i have.

I wonder though having been exposed to arguments by people like Jeffrey or Ax or me, or having perhaps read Betrand Russel or Dawkins do you really think we are lying? I mean do you really think when i say that i do not have a belief in a personal God that i am lying to you?

I really care about knowing what's true, i really want to know about the world, it's driven me for a long time. If there is a God or God(s), that is if there is an intelligence behind the universe I really want to know. I'm not pretending, i really do mean it. There all these people in the world and indeed many on this board who pretend that they are interested in learning about how things are, but they are charlatans, they just think it sounds good to say it, or they like the idea of being someone who really has an overpowering urge to know, to understand, to learn. But i'm the real thing, and i think it shows. So when you say you don't believe in atheists. Are you sure you believe that?

Do you really believe that Mark was lying when he said he didn't believe in God prior to his conversion? If you read the books by people like Dawkins can you really convince yourself that this person secretly belives in God despite the apparent conviction he has in the arguments he presents?

And what about my peers? How do you explain them?

As i said initially your position is consistent with the view that the bible is the inerrant word of a tradditional monotheist God but that conclusion might be wrong, might it not? Do you not think tha the requirement of claiming that people like me are lying might perhaps indicate that was the case? I mean there are plenty of other reason for thinking that's not the case - the fact that the two accounts in genesis contradict themselves with respect to the order of creation, the fact that if you add the dates in the bible it suggests a world that is a few thousand years old when the evidence is overwhelming for the idea that the world is billions years old, the fact the account of creating is inconsistent with what we understand of the natural world particularly the origin species, etc. etc.

Do you not agree that all of this can be taken as justification for rejection of the idea that the bible is inerrant?

These are all *excellent* questions, Moonbat.

Now...let me first admit that I'm kind of a stinker for using the "I don't believe in atheists" line. I did it because I think that's exactly what the Romans passage says...that God didn't make any atheists, I believe you have to become an atheist. Most people think that you have to come to belief in God, I think it's the other way round. Obviously I believe you exist, and I believe that you don't believe in God. I believe you are thoroughly convinced that there is no creator God. But, I also believe that what Romans 1:18-on says is true. I believe that you have made a decision to deny the God that has made His existence evident to you. So...no...not "lying"...but, as the passage states, "suppressing truth" by denying the evidence. I absolutely believe you are convinced.

You always have the good questions. And yes, I *absolutely* believe you are interested in truth. I most surely do.

*edit to reply to the last question...YES...I do believe this is exactly the reason men reject Scriptural inerrancy! I think that men, by and large, prefer their own ideas to God's. It's absolutely consistent with our ego driven nature to reject anything that we don't like, and to seek to defend our rejection of it.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Axtremus
Dec 27 2007, 04:15 AM


Take the Book of Revelation, for example.

The book describes a certain doomsday scenario, and you're not allowed to revise it.

Now you look at how science approaches end of the universe scenarios -- some predict big crunch, some predict ever expanding universe, some predict (thermodynamic) "heat death" -- you're expected to change your mind and toss the old prediction when warranted by new discoveries and new evidence. Armed with new discoveries and new evidence, future scientists are expected to toss Einstein's or Hawkin's or any one else's theories/predictions, not just "re-interpret" them and play apologetics.

Yet it doesn't matter what new discoveries have been made or what new evidence have been unearthed, Christians can't toss the Book of Revelation or even revise the doomsday scenario predictions contained there-in. Christians can only "re-interpret" them.
I am not really sure what you are asking, Ax. The Catholic Church has always read Apocalypse as visionary language, not as a movie script or a science account. Same for Genesis. If you think we should have read it the way you wanted us to, so that you can make some particular point, that is not our issue.
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We can also take a look at approaches to understand how the universe "began" (should there be a "beginning").

The Book of Genesis describes how the world was created in seven days. First, the Christian took it "literally," then they started to morph the interpretation by, for example, saying that the "seven days" or not really "seven days," but "seven epochs of indeterminant lengths", and they have to compromise on the ordering of those seven epochs ('coz otherwise you'd have man first and then all the other animals come later -- something that archaeological evidence have shown to be false). Pretty soon, "seven" doesn't even need to mean "seven" any more. That's apologetics.

Science simply tossed Genesis and replaced it with something else, and may continue to replace what ever it has today with some other things still, as new evidence and new discoveries come along.
You seem to fancy that this is some insight of "SCIENCE" in its modern understanding of the term. Origen, among other of the Church fathers did not hold to a literal seven days, and saw it figurative. You can read it in his debates with Celsus.
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Now let's get to your other point that says revelation through text comes secondary to revelation through creations -- that can't work either, because through out recorded history, people have been looking around and arrived at different spiritual believes. Ancient Egyptians believed in Ra (sun "god"), ancient Greek believed in Zeus/Apollo/Hermes et al (many "gods"), some ancient Chinese believed in Way of Nature ("Tao," no god) and some other ancient Chinese believed in hierarchical "gods," some ancient Asian-Indians believed in Buddha (not "god") and some other ancient Asian-Indians believed in Vishnu/Ganesh/Krishna et al (many "gods"), etc.
I have no idea what you mean by "can't work"? Are you assuming some sort of structuralism that all input produces the same result?

It seems the world is sufficiently complex to consider a number of possible solutions. You seem to be arguing that because so many people looked at the same thing and came up with different understandings, that therefore NONE of them can be correct.

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How do "you" know that "your" faith/theology/mythology is the "right" one when different peoples looked at the same "creations" and arrived at different faiths/theologies/mythologies? For those that have "sacred text," such texts are called upon to lend credence that a particular faith/theology/mythology is the "right" one.
I can't speak for anyone else. I am not a Christian because of the Bible. I am a Christian because of the love relationship I have with Jesus, which is only affirmed by the Bible.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Free Rider
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Fulla-Carp
I think I see "god" sometimes in music and its beauty both performing and listening...I wonder about that. I hear certain musical sound and it makes me feel spiritual, wondering how perfection like that can be attained....i don't know how to decribe this.

Ditto for nature.

I also enjoy discussions, and they do sometimes help me think about life in a different, better way. :thumb:
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
I sure see/hear His handiwork in music, Free. Well...some music :lol: but yeah, I think in addition to listening, I probably enjoy the time I spend expressing my love for Him with music as much as anything. Returning that gift to Him is, for me, a most exquisite pleasure.

and nature...well, that's just awe on a plate
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
I too see beauty and wonder beyond my facility to describe in both music and nature. Sometimes for a moment or two it can feel like living in a rainbow.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
Moonbat
Dec 27 2007, 12:59 PM
I too see beauty and wonder beyond my facility to describe in both music and nature. Sometimes for a moment or two it can feel like living in a rainbow.

I love that! I'd like to see that thought painted
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Free Rider
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Fulla-Carp
Moonbat
Dec 27 2007, 09:59 AM
I too see beauty and wonder beyond my facility to describe in both music and nature. Sometimes for a moment or two it can feel like living in a rainbow.

What a cool image.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Moonbat
Dec 27 2007, 12:59 PM
I too see beauty and wonder beyond my facility to describe in both music and nature. Sometimes for a moment or two it can feel like living in a rainbow.

Posted Image

Sorry - I couldn't help myself. It's an illness.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
:lol:
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Moonbat
Dec 27 2007, 09:59 AM
I too see beauty and wonder beyond my facility to describe in both music and nature. Sometimes for a moment or two it can feel like living in a rainbow.

That's a very nice image! We're getting a lot of rainbows lately. I guess it's part of the winter weather pattern on this island.
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thEiXbovv98

:P

see...my kids were little once...some of my fondest memories are associated with Kermit the Frog, Miss Piggy, Big Bird, Grover, and Elmo. I'm grinning like a fool thinking about a lap full of toddler, cookie crumbs on the couch and Cheerios in their hair
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Free Rider
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Fulla-Carp
my wife is due with our first child Jan. 30th.

My life is about to change! How old are your kids now? I'm getting drawn into all kinds of kid world stuff nowadays, and loving every minute of it.
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
I have a 20 year old son, a 17 year old daughter, and a 13 year old daughter. Get ready for the ride of your life!

:lol:

What an exciting time for you!
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Free Rider
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Fulla-Carp
You had a boy first? We know we're having a son, too. Can't wait 'till he gets old enough to shovel the driveway!!! :lol:
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Free Rider
Dec 27 2007, 10:44 AM
Can't wait 'till he gets old enough to shovel the driveway!!! :lol:

:lol: :lol:
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
Diva: "What you fail to understand is that I don't think *I* am right, I think God is right. The reason you're offended by that is because you think *you* are right."

Religious views should be treated special; non-religious views should not be treated special. I understand now - very clear and very fair minded and very tolerant!

(Note that both parts of Diva's equation are wrong. She could have just as easily chosen the Book of Mormon or the Koran, but didn't - it's all faith anyway. On the other hand, it is not that *my* views have any special weight for being mine - it's just where the overwhelming amount of evidence lies.)
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sue
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HOLY CARP!!!
DivaDeb
Dec 27 2007, 08:02 AM
What you fail to understand is that I don't think *I* am right, I think God is right.  The reason you're offended by that is because you think *you* are right.


Deb, you quite clearly said
Quote:
 
( I don't believe in atheists, I think all men know God exists, some choose to deny what God says they know, some very noisily)
so I think it is fair for me to assume that is what you think, and that you think it is right. Surely if* you* didn't think it was right, you would come up with your own thoughts on the matter?

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There is no arrogance in standing for Jesus Christ.
No Deb, the arrogance comes in assuming one's personal belief in Jesus Christ lies within all people, and that those of us that don't believe are just in denial. That is arrogant.

While I don't believe there is a god, I have no doubt whatsoever that those who do believe, believe so completely, and are not just avoiding what I believe to be the truth.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Moonbat
Dec 27 2007, 01:59 PM
I too see beauty and wonder beyond my facility to describe in both music and nature. Sometimes for a moment or two it can feel like living in a rainbow.

Hmmm... while I really can't argue with the reality of your personal experience, but perhaps we can examine your interpretation of such experience more closely. For starter, have you been listening to music with your Chemist friends near their chem lab? :unsure:
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
Now that you come to mention it i was in the lab, the guys were making something called 9,10-Didehydro-N,N-diethyl-6-methylergoline-8ß-carboxamide, but i'm sure that's mere coincidence.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
sue
Dec 27 2007, 04:00 PM
DivaDeb
Dec 27 2007, 08:02 AM
What you fail to understand is that I don't think *I* am right, I think God is right.  The reason you're offended by that is because you think *you* are right.


Deb, you quite clearly said
Quote:
 
( I don't believe in atheists, I think all men know God exists, some choose to deny what God says they know, some very noisily)
so I think it is fair for me to assume that is what you think, and that you think it is right. Surely if* you* didn't think it was right, you would come up with your own thoughts on the matter?

Quote:
 
There is no arrogance in standing for Jesus Christ.
No Deb, the arrogance comes in assuming one's personal belief in Jesus Christ lies within all people, and that those of us that don't believe are just in denial. That is arrogant.

While I don't believe there is a god, I have no doubt whatsoever that those who do believe, believe so completely, and are not just avoiding what I believe to be the truth.

I said, Sue, without equivocation, that you are free to call me arrogant if what I say fits your definition. I meant it. One clarification, I do not think that knowledge of Jesus Christ is inherent in the evidence of general revelation (i.e. nature, creation). I think the specific revelation of Scripture is necessary for anyone to come to faith in Christ. What I believe is evident from general natural revelation is the existence of the creator God.

All in all though, I think you can relax about my arrogance. I vote issues, not religion, so you can relax on that account. I am about as accepting of all the permutations of humanity that come my way as a person can be...I've always worked in the arts, so I've always been around a...variety...of personalities and people of different tenets, and gotten along swell with damn near everyone, so there should be no threat there. Let me put the worst case scenario of my "arrogance" in front of you: If there is a fire, or earthquake, or some other disaster, and it's just the two of us who need rescuing, and there is only only who can be rescued, you, Miss Sue, are going to be rescued because I'm pushing you into the arms of the rescuers. I am sure and certain of my eternal destiny and have absolute trust that my life is always in God's hands every minute of every day. He won't take me a second before it's my time to be with Him, at which point, I'm absent from the body and face to face with Him for all eternity. I assure you that's the worst sort of damage that my arrogance can do to you.

Yes, I *do* believe, firmly and unequivocally, that God has set eternity in the hearts of man and that He gave evidence of His existence in all that is created. You firmly believe otherwise. So what? I don't think your beliefs, as firmly held as mine from what I've seen over the years are arrogant, I think they're what you believe. You think I'm wrong, you've told me as much on many occasions. I have no problem with that *at all*. Never have, never will. I don't even have a problem with you calling me arrogant. So be it. I will say what I think, if you need to see it as arrogant, that's fine. Jeffrey thinks I aml in denial, suppressing what I really know, and self-comforting, because I can't handle that life is really essentially without meaning except for the meaning I invent, and hopeless with regard to death. What is the difference? The way I see things, we can all think what we think, and say what we think and why we think it. When someone asks what I think, or if there is ongoing discussion, I will say what I think and why I think it. I'm honest about it...I could tell you I think that any old thing is just as right as anything else, but that isn't what I think, so I don't say that. None of you think that way either and I would not expect you to pretend that you do.
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
Jeffrey
Dec 27 2007, 03:58 PM
Diva: "What you fail to understand is that I don't think *I* am right, I think God is right. The reason you're offended by that is because you think *you* are right."

Religious views should be treated special; non-religious views should not be treated special. I understand now - very clear and very fair minded and very tolerant!

(Note that both parts of Diva's equation are wrong. She could have just as easily chosen the Book of Mormon or the Koran, but didn't - it's all faith anyway. On the other hand, it is not that *my* views have any special weight for being mine - it's just where the overwhelming amount of evidence lies.)

no Jeffrey, I indicated nothing about "special treatment" at all. In fact, I've stated over and over that it doesn't bother me one bit what anyone else thinks of my views.

In fact, other than that, I'm not even sure what you are saying. I don't have faith in faith, I have faith in Jesus Christ, and more specifically, Jesus Christ as presented in the New Testament of the Bible, as fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy given to Israel regarding their coming Messiah. I don't think the Jesus Christ of the Book of Mormon is that fulfillment, and I don't think Mohammed was a prophet...so I wouldn't have said anything about the Book of Mormom or the Koran. It's your assessment that it's all the same, which seems silly to me.

But really...I absolutely don't want special treatment for my views. I have never had that, can't imagine that it will happen. I'm quite happy, yea even content, to take flack for what I think. It's not a problem.
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
Diva: "Jeffrey thinks I aml in denial, suppressing what I really know, and self-comforting"

No, I was simply pointing out the logical circularity and arbitrariness of your position. I, like Sue, think you mean what you say. You are in a position of trying to claim that other people don't mean what they say, and giving them weird psycho-babble explanations for their viewpoints. You psychobabblize atheists, but they do not do so to you. Take that as you wish ("arrogant' or not).

"because I can't handle that life is really essentially without meaning except for the meaning I invent, and hopeless with regard to death."

This is not what I said or any other atheist on this thread said. It's not like the only two choices are Jesus or existentialism ('invent" "hopeless"). This is the sort of thing religious believers say life would be like if they themselves lacked religion. (Dewey used to say this sort of melodramatic stuff too.) It is - at best - an expression of how religious believers view their own lives (absent their belief). A projection, if you will. It is not what actual atheists believe about their own lives or meaning or how they would express themselves. This is another example of putting words into atheists' mouths (whether you think this is "arrogant" or not).
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
Sorry, Jeffrey, I really did think that I remembered you saying something about Christians being motivated by fear to invent a comforter God.

If you didn't, cool, sorry, someone must have in one of the older threads, because it was new to me. I thought it was you, maybe it was WI or someone else. It certainly is not a projection and I didn't mean to put words in your mouth, so please forgive my mis-statement.

For what it's worth, I didn't invent my "weird psyco-babble" explanation of what unbelievers are doing. I just read it in the book of Romans and believed what I read. So shoot me. If you read what I wrote my explanation to moonbat, you will see that I *do* believe you mean what you say. I think it's very possible to totally convince oneself that something is true because one wants to believe that it's true...and I think we both think that is what the other is doing. We can't both be right, and we can't both be wrong (as far as the existence of a creator God is concerned...really...either He's there or He isn't, there are only two possibilities. His specific nature is another discussion entirely). Either I'm denying truth or you are. I think there's evidence you are denying, you think there's evidence I am denying. What is the difference?
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
Diva: "I remembered you saying something about Christians being motivated by fear to invent a comforter God."

I don't recall anything like this. I have said that religious belief is irrational and flies in the face of the evidence of modern science and is declining rapidly in the face of such evidence. At some point in some far distant thread I even said that 500 years ago belief in a creator God might have been rational (not true, but reasonable to believe), but that it is so no longer. I don't think it is fear or existential dread that causes religious belief (in general, some people might feel this way of course) but social acculturation, which is why you have Christians in the USA, Hindus in India, Moslems in Saudi Arabia, Mormons in Utah and so forth. It has little to do with fear, just acculturation and habit.

"I think we both think that is what the other is doing. We can't both be right"

Well, we can be if Frank W is correct about God-relativism. :)
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