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Why didn't we listen?
Topic Started: Dec 7 2007, 09:03 AM (555 Views)
Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
QuirtEvans
Dec 7 2007, 06:23 PM

Oh, and Mik ... I thought your post was great. I was out with the kids, and didn't have a chance to tell you so yet. Who knew you were that sensitive?

Thanks, Quirt - I'm not, but I just thought that post was good enough to at least stimulate SOME discussion. Or perhaps a rant on socialism's evils. Something, anyway. ^_^
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
ivorythumper
Dec 7 2007, 05:31 PM
jon-nyc
Dec 7 2007, 03:24 PM
Mikhailoh
Dec 7 2007, 04:57 PM
I don't recall TJ telling his opponents to fvck off...  :lol:

Jefferson would have done it in Latin:


"Futue te ipsum!" ;)

caballumque tuum



Quisque comoedus est
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
Mik, I see the effect of badly written laws every day, and on a few occasions I have been hired to write laws, so I know how difficult it can be to get even a sinple law right.

One of the horrible laws I deal with every day is Bush's so-called estate tax repeal which gradually increases the exemption from estate taxes up to 3.5 million in 2009 (a good thing), repeals the tax altogether in 2010, and then reinstates it in 2011 with an exemption back down at $1 million.

I know it was written that war budgetary reasons but for those of us who do estate planning, and our clients, it is a mess.

jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
soc et tu mi

Posted Image
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
jon-nyc
Dec 7 2007, 03:39 PM
ivorythumper
Dec 7 2007, 05:31 PM
jon-nyc
Dec 7 2007, 03:24 PM
Mikhailoh
Dec 7 2007, 04:57 PM
I don't recall TJ telling his opponents to fvck off...  :lol:

Jefferson would have done it in Latin:


"Futue te ipsum!" ;)

caballumque tuum



Quisque comoedus est

Non plaudite. Modo pecuniam jacite.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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nobody
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Newbie
Mark
Dec 7 2007, 09:03 AM
"Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should,
therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense.
Their meaning is not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties
which may make anything mean everything or nothing at pleasure."


-- Thomas Jefferson (letter to William Johnson, 1823)

Reference: The Writings of Thomas Jefferson (Memorial Edition),
Lipscomb and Bergh, eds., 15:450.

Actually, "nobody" does care.

I value Jefferson's perspectives on the foundations of our law and its intent more than any other. That's a singularly important point he's making there. ;)
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mikhailoh
Dec 7 2007, 02:51 PM
soc et tu mi

Posted Image

The scary thing is she's still trying to look like that.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mik,

I read your post and thought it was well written from a perspective of experience..

Thank you!

I think you either have to pass a new law effectively repealing or modifying the old law to provide for the exemptions or just obey the existing law. What's so complex about that? ;)

Nobody does care! Thank you nobody! :lol:
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
It is nice to say that, Mark, but what, as written, does the moratorium really mean? Does it apply to site plan reviews or not? What constitutes a zoning change or a permit?

This is just one, relatively simple example. It is nice to say 'oh, if it does not say site plan, it does not mean site plan' but that puts the onus on the lawmakers to dot every i, cross every single t, or have the intent of the laws they pass shredded. That is what it comes down to sometimes, but that fact is exactly WHY you see laws that are complex. Lawmaking is an exacting science.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
I have no idea what the moratorium really means unless I read it.

The answer to what constitutes a zoning change or permit is exactly that. A zoning change or permit. Are these being proposed?

A site plan review is just a review is it not? I mean it doesn't permit the bulldozers to start moving dirt does it? Approvals typically mean that a site plan is approved but then do not the appropriate permits then have to be issued?

Sounds like the moratorium will hold up the permit if nothing else. Does holding up the permit essentially kill the proposed project(s) because of funding or matching fund issues?
___.___
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o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
All those things have yet to be determined.

Additionally, we have the issue of do we - CAN we - override the decision of the township engineer? Ordinarily what we do is grant variances from the zoning code based on intent of the standard, the effect of the variance on surrounding residents and the hardship to the property owner.

I don't need an answer - we'll eke that out on our own. I just want to illustrate that, although the Jefferson quote sounds great on the face of it, making and applying law correctly and justly is devilishly complicated. Maybe the most complicated thing we do. Building a space shuttle is complex - but it is mostly mathematics. There are no formulas for good law.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Mark
Dec 7 2007, 11:40 PM
I have no idea what the moratorium really means unless I read it.

The answer to what constitutes a zoning change or permit is exactly that. A zoning change or permit. Are these being proposed?

A site plan review is just a review is it not? I mean it doesn't permit the bulldozers to start moving dirt does it? Approvals typically mean that a site plan is approved but then do not the appropriate permits then have to be issued?

Sounds like the moratorium will hold up the permit if nothing else. Does holding up the permit essentially kill the proposed project(s) because of funding or matching fund issues?

If you add a shed, is it a zoning change?

If you park a taxi on the property on a regular overnight basis, is it a zoning change? How about a crane?

If you work out of your home, is it a zoning change? How about if clients visit you in your home? How about if you put up a sign and encourage walk-in traffic?

It's not always intuitively obvious what the words "zoning change" mean ... except, perhaps, to Ron Paul.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Indeed, it is very easy to deem all things simple.. until one has to actually do them. That's where the rubber meets the road.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
In January, 2007 my wife wanted to open a massage studio in a piece of commercial property for which she had secured a lease. There was no change of zoning required and, atthe time, she was going to share the space with a guy running a dance studio.

In order for her to license her business she, of course, had to go through the usual application process with the city. According to city statutes if there is a change of use at a piece of commercial property then all sorts of upgrade to ADA compliance standard kick in.

In short, the restrooms in the place were not large enough for a wheel chair to navigate, among other smaller items, so they were required to be upgraded (I had to ask the city official whether the wheel chair requirement would have applied if the change of use was to a dance studio instead of the other way and he assured me they would).

Change of use, when co-located with another existing business, was determined by the percentage of space the new business would take on. My wife's business fell over the threshold by less than 5%. That less than 5% cost us over $7,000.00 to do the necessary upgrades. In addition, the city was not merely requiring adherence to the federal ADA standard but to a higher ANSI standard that made a much cheaper solution unavailable. In the end, we went through all the hoops and she finally opened her doors in May, 2007.

The only reason I bring this up is to illustrate just how capricious and arbitrary zoning or, in this case, other requirements can be. However, I can't see how it could have been foreseen by legislators to have written the legislation in a manner that would have taken into account my wife's unusual situation. **** happens is all you can say. I can aslo say that no one in a wheel chair has ever come to my wife for massage therapy but I suppose it could happen. It sure makes more sense than for the guy with the dance studio but he would have fallen under the same requirement. The fact is that access for people with disabilities should be a concern for society as a whole and situations like my wife's does not negate that. But putting that into law will never be equally painless or make equal sense for everyone who has to adhere to it and there will never be any one simple or even sensible interpretion of what it means in all cases.

BTW, my wife's business is still open and she is actually doing quite well so it was not money down the toilet, so to speak.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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