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Why didn't we listen?
Topic Started: Dec 7 2007, 09:03 AM (554 Views)
Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
"Laws are made for men of ordinary understanding and should,
therefore, be construed by the ordinary rules of common sense.
Their meaning is not to be sought for in metaphysical subtleties
which may make anything mean everything or nothing at pleasure."


-- Thomas Jefferson (letter to William Johnson, 1823)

Reference: The Writings of Thomas Jefferson (Memorial Edition),
Lipscomb and Bergh, eds., 15:450.


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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Because nobody cares?

I guess I will go with that then.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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The 89th Key
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I'm not sure what this is in reference to.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Me neither, 89.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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The 89th Key
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Maybe the tax code?

On that, I agree!
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Mark is very very very very very angry at our government.
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
Kenny, you left out a 'very.'
Sam
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
You are right kenny. I am so angry with the way things are that I don't get along very well politically with either the right or the left or what the right and left have become I should say. That's not to say that I would not get along with any of you individually at say a piano party or dinner or a backyard barbecue.

I am a minority it would seem. I care too much about freedom lost.

But, I'm OK with being in a minority like that. I just wish people would stop being so dependent on and so trusting of a government that does not know the meaning of the phrase, "self-control" when it comes to just about everything that it does. A government that arms it's agencies against the people and gives them near totalitarian control over the people with a guilty until proven innocent approach to things such as, yes, the tax code and the purchase and use of drugs both prescription and non-prescription just as a couple of examples.

The main gist of the quote was to point out that the lawyers took control of this country. The write laws that the common person cannot understand. Laws that are filled with ambiguity and they do this on purpose to confuse and make the people feel stupid so they do not question what is being done.

Yes, I think too much. That is probably my biggest problem. I think too much.

I wonder of there is a pill for that. One that I could take and just fall into line like a zombie where I wouldn't even think anywhere close to how I think right now.

Maybe a lobotomy?
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Well regardless, Jefferson's view of the law and what is currently used as the standard are completely opposed. Who knows, maybe Jefferson was considered as radical and idealist in his time as people perceive Mark to be now.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Dec 7 2007, 12:46 PM
Well regardless, Jefferson's view of the law and what is currently used as the standard are completely opposed. Who knows, maybe Jefferson was considered as radical and idealist in his time as people perceive Mark to be now.

You're comparing Thomas Jefferson and Mark. Enough said.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I agree that some laws, most notably the tax code, are far too complex. I think some are too simple, too.

But one thing you need to take into account is that the writing and application of laws is by nature a terribly complex task. With the stroke of a pen, poorly written law can cause an avalanche of unintended consequences. It can either horribly restrict something good or it can open the floodgates for something bad to happen by establishing a mechanism to circumvent another law.

I deal with zoning laws on a monthly basis, being on the township's Board of Zoning Appeals. Issues range from the simple to the very, very complex. Always at issue is the right of the property owner versus the good of the community as a whole. This month's meeting has a monster of an issue brought on by the township trustees' one year moratorium on any changes or permits to a two mile stretch of road that was developed very quickly in the 80's and 90's and is suffering from that rapid development now with some empty storefronts. Businesses like grocery stores and WalMart have closed up and moved to more newly developed areas nearby, and the businesses that builyt up around them have closed as the traffic the larger stors brought in dwindled. A mere twenty year period between boom and the beginnings of blight.

Now we have to decide whether or not that moratorium applies to site plan reviews and approvals, or wqhether they are exempt from the moratorium and must be reviewed. The lawyers are coming, and it is going to get quite contentious as there is a lot of money and major developers involved. I have read all the applicable resolutions on the moratorium, and it is still not clear to me what we need to rule. We're going to have to go through a whole lot of defining of various instruments before we get to the essence of the matter.

The moratorium is law in the township. It was written simply, and is very easy for a layman to understand. But that only works until it hits the compexities and vagaries of the real world.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Daniel
Dec 7 2007, 01:19 PM

You're comparing Thomas Jefferson and Mark. Enough said.

You need to be more critical when you read posts. I hope you don't think I'm saying that Mark is the new Thomas Jefferson (and I'll get to that in a minute). I said, exactly, "maybe Jefferson was considered as radical and idealist in his time as people perceive Mark to be now."

That means, it is possible that Thomas Jefferson was met with the same level of disagreement for his views that Mark experiences as well.

As for comparing Thomas Jefferson to Mark, why the hell not?
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Dec 7 2007, 01:24 PM
Daniel
Dec 7 2007, 01:19 PM

You're comparing Thomas Jefferson and Mark.  Enough said.

You need to be more critical when you read posts. I hope you don't think I'm saying that Mark is the new Thomas Jefferson (and I'll get to that in a minute). I said, exactly, "maybe Jefferson was considered as radical and idealist in his time as people perceive Mark to be now."

That means, it is possible that Thomas Jefferson was met with the same level of disagreement for his views that Mark experiences as well.

As for comparing Thomas Jefferson to Mark, why the hell not?

Oh, please.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Daniel
Dec 7 2007, 01:31 PM

Oh, please.

Way to answer the question.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
I think of Mark as more of a Nathan Hale kind of guy.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Aqua Letifer
Dec 7 2007, 04:32 PM
Daniel
Dec 7 2007, 01:31 PM

Oh, please.

Way to answer the question.

In Daniel's defense, there may not be any way to answer that question without being insulting, and Daniel has been endeavoring to be more polite than I am.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Thank you Kincaid! I will take that as a huge compliment.

You too Aqua I would not even begin to compare myself to such a great man as Thomas Jefferson but thanks for the association.

Fvck you Daniel.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
QuirtEvans
Dec 7 2007, 01:52 PM

In Daniel's defense, there may not be any way to answer that question without being insulting, and Daniel has been endeavoring to be more polite than I am.

You can still make comparisons.

Ten bucks says Jefferson was taller. There, I just made one, and the thought police didn't come and arrest me for being silly. I really don't see your point.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I don't recall TJ telling his opponents to fvck off... :lol:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
It probably just wasn't written down Mik. ;)
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
Dec 7 2007, 01:55 PM
Thank you Kincaid! I will take that as a huge compliment.

You too Aqua I would not even begin to compare myself to such a great man as Thomas Jefferson but thanks for the association.

Fvck you Daniel.

Mark, I am WOUNDED TO THE CORE! And to think, I've been told off by a man who might be Jefferson's equal! Must mark this day on the calender... :rolleyes:
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Speaking of wounded, I thought I wrote a very good illustration of the unavoidable complexities of the law. Nobody even commented.

Wah. :weeping:
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Aqua Letifer
Dec 7 2007, 04:56 PM
QuirtEvans
Dec 7 2007, 01:52 PM

In Daniel's defense, there may not be any way to answer that question without being insulting, and Daniel has been endeavoring to be more polite than I am.

You can still make comparisons.

Ten bucks says Jefferson was taller. There, I just made one, and the thought police didn't come and arrest me for being silly. I really don't see your point.


Well, I don't think Daniel was thinking about their height when he made the comment.

Again, I don't see how to get into this without being insulting. If you insist that you don't understand, and you insist that you must know, I can elucidate, but I prefer not.

Oh, and Mik ... I thought your post was great. I was out with the kids, and didn't have a chance to tell you so yet. Who knew you were that sensitive?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Mikhailoh
Dec 7 2007, 04:57 PM
I don't recall TJ telling his opponents to fvck off...  :lol:

Jefferson would have done it in Latin:


"Futue te ipsum!" ;)
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
jon-nyc
Dec 7 2007, 03:24 PM
Mikhailoh
Dec 7 2007, 04:57 PM
I don't recall TJ telling his opponents to fvck off...  :lol:

Jefferson would have done it in Latin:


"Futue te ipsum!" ;)

caballumque tuum
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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