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Religious Liberty
Topic Started: Dec 5 2007, 06:33 PM (457 Views)
Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Another one from Daniel's favorite think tank:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Thought/upload/wm_1722.pdf
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Quote:
 
The Founders’ support for blending religion and politics was based on the following syllogism: Morality is necessary for republican government; religion is necessary for morality; therefore, religion is necessary for republican government.



Putting aside the obvious fact that 'the founders' weren't a monolith with a single opinion on this issue, this syllogism is simply false. Religion is most definitely not necessary for morality.

I would argue, from the subjective viewpoint of a 21st century American, that morality is possible only to the extent a society has ceased to take the Abrahamic religions seriously.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
The premise is false, i.e. that the founders supported blending religion and politics.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
No dumbass, *your* premise is false.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Larry
Dec 6 2007, 10:03 AM
No dumbass, *your* premise is false.

I wait in breathless anticipation for all the people who are critical of name-calling and mud-slinging to weigh in on the fourth post of this thread.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Kiss my ass, Quirt. I saw your own little mud slinging over on another thread.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
jon-nyc
Dec 6 2007, 06:44 AM
Quote:
 
The Founders’ support for blending religion and politics was based on the following syllogism: Morality is necessary for republican government; religion is necessary for morality; therefore, religion is necessary for republican government.



Putting aside the obvious fact that 'the founders' weren't a monolith with a single opinion on this issue, this syllogism is simply false. Religion is most definitely not necessary for morality.

I would argue, from the subjective viewpoint of a 21st century American, that morality is possible only to the extent a society has ceased to take the Abrahamic religions seriously.

While the Founders had not a single monolithic view of religion, the fact remains they were men of their times. A redfish may not notice the water it swims in is salt water, but place it on land, or place it in fresh water, and the effect is immediate.

Whether they be Theistic, Calvanists, Papists or even agnostics, to deny the pervasive nature of religion, specifically the Christian religion, in the 18th century's writings and even everyday speech, is intellectually dishonest.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Copper
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Shortstop
jon-nyc
Dec 6 2007, 07:44 AM
Religion is most definitely not necessary for morality.



However it is for freedom.

From Mr. Romney:

"Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone," he said.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/06/rom...eech/index.html
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Copper
Dec 6 2007, 09:50 AM
jon-nyc
Dec 6 2007, 07:44 AM
Religion is most definitely not necessary for morality. 



However it is for freedom.

Yeah, that's not true either.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Copper
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Shortstop
QuirtEvans
Dec 6 2007, 10:36 AM
Larry
Dec 6 2007, 10:03 AM
No dumbass, *your* premise is false.

I wait in breathless anticipation for all the people who are critical of name-calling and mud-slinging to weigh in on the fourth post of this thread.


Very good Q, you are learning to recognize bad behavior.

This skill will come in handy as you try to overcome your troubles.

Maybe someday you’ll be able to pass it along to your friends.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
Quote:
 

From Mr. Romney:

"Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone," he said.


Bollocks.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Copper
Dec 6 2007, 09:50 AM
jon-nyc
Dec 6 2007, 07:44 AM
Religion is most definitely not necessary for morality. 



However it is for freedom.

From Mr. Romney:

"Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone," he said.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/06/rom...eech/index.html

Utter BS.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Copper
Dec 6 2007, 12:51 PM
QuirtEvans
Dec 6 2007, 10:36 AM
Larry
Dec 6 2007, 10:03 AM
No dumbass, *your* premise is false.

I wait in breathless anticipation for all the people who are critical of name-calling and mud-slinging to weigh in on the fourth post of this thread.


Very good Q, you are learning to recognize bad behavior.

This skill will come in handy as you try to overcome your troubles.

Maybe someday you’ll be able to pass it along to your friends.

I'm pretty observant. I'm completely aware, for example, of how one-sided your sniping is, even if you aren't.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Moonbat
Dec 6 2007, 11:53 AM
Quote:
 

From Mr. Romney:

"Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone," he said.


Bollocks.

Ok, learned one, please cite any major advance in personal freedom that did not have some type of religious impetus.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Copper
Dec 6 2007, 12:50 PM
jon-nyc
Dec 6 2007, 07:44 AM
Religion is most definitely not necessary for morality. 



However it is for freedom.

From Mr. Romney:

"Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone," he said.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/06/rom...eech/index.html

When considering the wisdom of these words, it's worth bearing in mind thar Mr. Romney's opinions change like the wind depending on which particular group of votes he is attempting to obtain. The guy is a waste of hair gel.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Jolly
Dec 6 2007, 01:07 PM
Moonbat
Dec 6 2007, 11:53 AM
Quote:
 

From Mr. Romney:

"Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone," he said.


Bollocks.

Ok, learned one, please cite any major advance in personal freedom that did not have some type of religious impetus.

Magna Carta.

;)
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
John D'Oh
Dec 6 2007, 12:11 PM
Jolly
Dec 6 2007, 01:07 PM
Moonbat
Dec 6 2007, 11:53 AM
Quote:
 

From Mr. Romney:

"Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone," he said.


Bollocks.

Ok, learned one, please cite any major advance in personal freedom that did not have some type of religious impetus.

Magna Carta.

;)

England of that time was a religious vacuum? :lol2:
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Copper
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Shortstop
QuirtEvans
Dec 6 2007, 01:00 PM
Copper
Dec 6 2007, 12:51 PM
QuirtEvans
Dec 6 2007, 10:36 AM
Larry
Dec 6 2007, 10:03 AM
No dumbass, *your* premise is false.

I wait in breathless anticipation for all the people who are critical of name-calling and mud-slinging to weigh in on the fourth post of this thread.


Very good Q, you are learning to recognize bad behavior.

This skill will come in handy as you try to overcome your troubles.

Maybe someday you’ll be able to pass it along to your friends.

I'm pretty observant. I'm completely aware, for example, of how one-sided your sniping is, even if you aren't.


So you think I should also help Larry clean up his act?

Well my work with you still has a long way to go, but it might give you some incentive if you watch Larry's behavior improve.

OK Larry let's think about improving your behavior.

First let's just watch how some of the big boys behave. Let's see which behavior we think is good and which is bad. Then from time to time we can discuss which behavior we prefer.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
You just changed the terms of your question.

Your question was:

Quote:
 
please cite any major advance in personal freedom that did not have some type of religious impetus.


You didn't ask him to cite any major advance in personal freedom that occurred in a religious vacuum.

So, do you believe that there was a religious impetus behind the Magna Carta?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Copper
Dec 6 2007, 01:25 PM
QuirtEvans
Dec 6 2007, 01:00 PM
Copper
Dec 6 2007, 12:51 PM
QuirtEvans
Dec 6 2007, 10:36 AM
Larry
Dec 6 2007, 10:03 AM
No dumbass, *your* premise is false.

I wait in breathless anticipation for all the people who are critical of name-calling and mud-slinging to weigh in on the fourth post of this thread.


Very good Q, you are learning to recognize bad behavior.

This skill will come in handy as you try to overcome your troubles.

Maybe someday you’ll be able to pass it along to your friends.

I'm pretty observant. I'm completely aware, for example, of how one-sided your sniping is, even if you aren't.


So you think I should also help Larry clean up his act?

Well my work with you still has a long way to go, but it might give you some incentive if you watch Larry's behavior improve.

OK Larry let's think about improving your behavior.

First let's just watch how some of the big boys behave. Let's see which behavior we think is good and which is bad. Then from time to time we can discuss which behavior we prefer.

Physician, heal thyself.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
QuirtEvans
Dec 6 2007, 12:26 PM
You just changed the terms of your question.

Your question was:

Quote:
 
please cite any major advance in personal freedom that did not have some type of religious impetus.


You didn't ask him to cite any major advance in personal freedom that occurred in a religious vacuum.

So, do you believe that there was a religious impetus behind the Magna Carta?

:yes:

Look at society of the time.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Jolly
Dec 6 2007, 10:35 AM


Look at society of the time.

Bad assumption.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
Jolly
Dec 6 2007, 06:23 PM
John D'Oh
Dec 6 2007, 12:11 PM
Jolly
Dec 6 2007, 01:07 PM
Moonbat
Dec 6 2007, 11:53 AM
Quote:
 

From Mr. Romney:

"Freedom requires religion, just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone," he said.


Bollocks.

Ok, learned one, please cite any major advance in personal freedom that did not have some type of religious impetus.

Magna Carta.

;)

England of that time was a religious vacuum? :lol2:

Right so the fact that in the past almost everyone was religious means that the social advances that occured in the past needed religion to occur?

Ok then, in the past almost everyone was racist so i guess that means that the social advances of the past needed racism to occur.

In the past (almost?) everyone was ignorant of the cellular basis of life so that means that the social advances of the past needed ignorance of cellular biology to occur.

Etc. etc. etc.

To even interpret the meaning of Romneys claim is challenging. Freedom needs religion? What? Do i as an atheist have less freedom than the believers of Bhaal or Allah or *insert irrational belief here*? Clearly not. What about society in general? Do members of secular societies have more or less freedom than those in theocracies? Hmmm that's a tough one.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Copper
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Shortstop
QuirtEvans
Dec 6 2007, 01:27 PM

Physician, heal thyself.


Great, thanks Q.

See that Larry? See what happens?

Q starts by asking for help, but ends up lashing out at the world once again.

This is what happens when you have ill intent, it escalates and feeds on itself.

We can all learn to control and stop this kind of bad behavior.
The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Copper
Dec 6 2007, 10:55 AM


See that Larry? See what happens?

Q starts by asking for help, but ends up lashing out at the world once again.

This is what happens when you have ill intent, it escalates and feeds on itself.

We can all learn to control and stop this kind of bad behavior.

It's interesting that Quirt was pointing out who started the mudslinging in this thread, and you spun it around to talk about how much Quirt sucks.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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