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Elixer of Life; A question
Topic Started: Dec 5 2007, 12:15 PM (588 Views)
sarah_blueparrot
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Fulla-Carp
It sounds nice. You could build your church.
Death is simply a shedding of the physical body like the butterfly shedding its cocoon. It is a transition to a higher state of consciousness where you continue to perceive, to understand, to laugh, and to be able to grow.

- Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Maybe... Or just realize that the real church is, as it has always been, within.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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sarah_blueparrot
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:)
Death is simply a shedding of the physical body like the butterfly shedding its cocoon. It is a transition to a higher state of consciousness where you continue to perceive, to understand, to laugh, and to be able to grow.

- Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
I was going to say something like 89th - yes, but with caveats. Now that someone points out the issue of wealth, or lack of it, I think I'd say no. If I was independently wealthy (fat chance) that would be one thing, but having to work the rest of an eternal life sounds too awful.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Moonbat
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ivorythumper
Dec 5 2007, 09:13 PM
Moonbat
Dec 5 2007, 01:49 PM
Coincidently i was thinking last night that if we live in a multiverse, which we may well, then we might all be stuck living forever or atleast for a ridiculous length of time. Multiverse immortality sounds pretty awful until you realise you can exploit the source of your immortality to mould the universe around you to pretty much anything you want.

You could always become a Mormon if that's what you're looking for.

Becoming a Mormon wouldn't alter the nature of the universe.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Frank_W
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Kincaid
Dec 5 2007, 04:48 PM
I was going to say something like 89th - yes, but with caveats. Now that someone points out the issue of wealth, or lack of it, I think I'd say no. If I was independently wealthy (fat chance) that would be one thing, but having to work the rest of an eternal life sounds too awful.

I suppose that depends on the nature of the work itself. :)
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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sarah_blueparrot
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Fulla-Carp
If you were eternal you'd find a way of Getting Rich Quick. You could always sell your story.
Death is simply a shedding of the physical body like the butterfly shedding its cocoon. It is a transition to a higher state of consciousness where you continue to perceive, to understand, to laugh, and to be able to grow.

- Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross
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Frank_W
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If you're eternal, what's the rush? :)
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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sarah_blueparrot
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Fulla-Carp
Are you allowed to eat? Because if you don't need to or can't that would be rubbish.
Death is simply a shedding of the physical body like the butterfly shedding its cocoon. It is a transition to a higher state of consciousness where you continue to perceive, to understand, to laugh, and to be able to grow.

- Dr. Elizabeth Kubler-Ross
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kenny
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Sure.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Moonbat
Dec 5 2007, 02:55 PM
ivorythumper
Dec 5 2007, 09:13 PM
Moonbat
Dec 5 2007, 01:49 PM
Coincidently i was thinking last night that if we live in a multiverse, which we may well, then we might all be stuck living forever or atleast for a ridiculous length of time. Multiverse immortality sounds pretty awful until you realise you can exploit the source of your immortality to mould the universe around you to pretty much anything you want.

You could always become a Mormon if that's what you're looking for.

Becoming a Mormon wouldn't alter the nature of the universe.

I didn't say it did -- they are all about immortality and moulding the universe as future deities, each with their own creational worlds -- pretty much the same thing you seem to be radically open to in principle if not in detail.

Do you have any evidence for multiverses? Are they material? If so, what sort of materials?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
sarah_blueparrot
Dec 5 2007, 03:02 PM
If you were eternal you'd find a way of Getting Rich Quick. You could always sell your story.

Just buy land --eventually you'll own it all.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Not that Romney is a member of a cult, or anything.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Moonbat
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ivorythumper
Dec 5 2007, 10:46 PM
Moonbat
Dec 5 2007, 02:55 PM
ivorythumper
Dec 5 2007, 09:13 PM
Moonbat
Dec 5 2007, 01:49 PM
Coincidently i was thinking last night that if we live in a multiverse, which we may well, then we might all be stuck living forever or atleast for a ridiculous length of time. Multiverse immortality sounds pretty awful until you realise you can exploit the source of your immortality to mould the universe around you to pretty much anything you want.

You could always become a Mormon if that's what you're looking for.

Becoming a Mormon wouldn't alter the nature of the universe.

I didn't say it did -- they are all about immortality and moulding the universe as future deities, each with their own creational worlds -- pretty much the same thing you seem to be radically open to in principle if not in detail.

Do you have any evidence for multiverses? Are they material? If so, what sort of materials?


I'm radically open to anything in principle, the virtues of having a scientific background. I'm not sure i like it though.

In terms of evidence for the multiverse - single electron diffraction experiments and the effectiveness of Shor's algorithm are the examples usually cited. In general there is reems of evidence supporting quantum mechanics, the question is what does quantum mechanics actually say about the universe - one view (the view favoured by philosophers of science, most quantum cosmologists and a sizeable minority of physicists) is that quantum mechanics says we live in a multiverse.

There is still hope that we aren't in a multiverse, however the recent derivation of the Bohr probability rules within the Everett framework seem to me pretty strong.

In terms of what material the multiverse is composed of, well subatomic particles: electrons, quarks, neutrinos, they make up atoms that make up molecules that make up liquids and solids and the like.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Kincaid
Dec 5 2007, 03:49 PM
Not that Romney is a member of a cult, or anything.

Hey Kinc-- could you give us the low down on that Mormon idea? My notion of it (as is probably evident from my post) is pretty sketchy.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Moonbat
Dec 5 2007, 04:09 PM

In terms of what material the multiverse is composed of, well subatomic particles: electrons, quarks, neutrinos, they make up atoms that make up molecules that make up liquids and solides and the like.

What would lead someone to talk about a multiverse, instead of just a finer level of understanding the universe on an increasingly microcosmic level?

It seems that if things like consciousness (and even frangible material things) require a more macrocosmic assembly of matter that is made of such components, then to speak of multiverses or multiversic immortality or multiversic consciousness would require that those component parts assemble themselves differently into higher organizations to allow for such things as the ability to mould the universe around you.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Moonbat
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Quote:
 

What would lead someone to talk about a multiverse, instead of just a finer level of understanding the universe on an increasingly microcosmic level?


What leads one to talk about the multiverse are things like single electron diffraction, quantum mechanics appears to claim that things like electrons exist in every position in space at the same time. Indeed quantum mechanics appears to claim that everything we see around us exists in a superposition of states.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
ivorythumper
Dec 5 2007, 03:10 PM
Kincaid
Dec 5 2007, 03:49 PM
Not that Romney is a member of a cult, or anything.

Hey Kinc-- could you give us the low down on that Mormon idea? My notion of it (as is probably evident from my post) is pretty sketchy.

The Morman Church was founded by Joseph Smith, a young charlatan with a budding track record of fraud. He developed a pretty good following claiming to have discovered hidden golden plates written by the the "Nephites", a family that fled ancient Israel by boat and landed in the Western hemisphere and grew into a large civilization. (There was an earlier migration stemming from the Tower of Babel, I think it was the "Jaredites", but they were pretty much gone by the time Nephi's family showed up. I should say the people of the new world were divided up into two tribes, the Lamanites (bad) and the Nephites (good). After much warfare, the last surviving Nephite, Mormon, or maybe it was Moroni, buried the book of history inscribed upon golden plates in a hillside near Palmyra, NY. Fast forward to 1820 when Smith was 12 years old or so. He claims a revival was going thru the area (no one has found evidence of this) and he was confused by the competing claims of the protestant denominations. He says he prayed and had a vision where God and Jesus, as two separate beings, appeared to him and told him that none of the churches were true but that the truth would be revealed to him. He was later visited by the "Angel Moroni" (or maybe it was Mormon) and was told about the hidden plates. Some years later he was lead to the plates by more angels and was able to translate them into the "Book of Mormon". Smith formed a church and it began to grow. He would later declare that polygamy was God's desire to help the church grow. Like any cult there was friction and eventually Smith was jailed and then a mob broke in and killed him and some other companions. Anyway, much to much to say about Mormonism but it is very fascinating. There is oodles of evidence to show that the entire church is a sham but the members refuse to exam it or even talk about it. One thing that is the most interesting is that the farther you get away from the original Book of Mormon the more changes there have been made to it. It needs a lot of shoring up and the religion was really a work in progress early on. I guess I would say that Mormonism is a cult as it has such a strong link to Smith even today. However, at what point does a cult change into a religion? I've said before that when I looked into Islam I was struck by the parallels between it and the Mormon church. Still, Jesus and Christianity has a lot of similarities as well.

Anyway, Mormons do believe that if you do things correctly you will be a God someday of your own world. Your wife (and wives, because you get more!) will be eternally pumping out the babies to populate the world. (Early church leaders were not very good at math and didn't realize the incomprehensibility of that feat).
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Moonbat
Dec 5 2007, 04:41 PM
Quote:
 

What would lead someone to talk about a multiverse, instead of just a finer level of understanding the universe on an increasingly microcosmic level?


What leads one to talk about the multiverse are things like single electron diffraction, quantum mechanics appears to claim that things like electrons exist in every position in space at the same time. Indeed quantum mechanics appears to claim that everything we see around us exists in a superposition of states.

Interesting, and thanks. I can only wonder if some day folks won't look at that and think :doh: people used to think the earth was flat and at the center of the universe as well. :lol:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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plays88keys
Pisa-Carp
The first thing I thought of after reading the question was the fate of the Tom Hanks character in The Green Mile.

I think it would be terrible to watch all your loved ones die while you just go on and on.
You can never get enough of what you don't need to make you happy.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Thanks, Kinc -- I am specifically interested in how they deal with the question of becoming gods running their own planets or universes... Is it supposed to be like getting your own petting zoo, or do you get the Play-do(tm) and make things from scratch?

This came up the other week. I met for the first time my direct 3rd cousin -- we share a common great great grandfather. He became Mormon and is doing the family genealogy. Very interesting stuff, but it was sort of strange that though we share a common ancestor we had about as much in common as anyone randomly picked from a phone book.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
I'm not sure if you get one of the existing solar systems to rule over or if you get to start from scratch. Here is an pretty good link for more info.

http://www.exmormon.org/tract2.htm
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
Kincaid
Dec 5 2007, 07:55 PM
ivorythumper
Dec 5 2007, 03:10 PM
Kincaid
Dec 5 2007, 03:49 PM
Not that Romney is a member of a cult, or anything.

Hey Kinc-- could you give us the low down on that Mormon idea? My notion of it (as is probably evident from my post) is pretty sketchy.

The Morman Church was founded by Joseph Smith, a young charlatan with a budding track record of fraud. He developed a pretty good following claiming to have discovered hidden golden plates written by the the "Nephites", a family that fled ancient Israel by boat and landed in the Western hemisphere and grew into a large civilization. (There was an earlier migration stemming from the Tower of Babel, I think it was the "Jaredites", but they were pretty much gone by the time Nephi's family showed up. I should say the people of the new world were divided up into two tribes, the Lamanites (bad) and the Nephites (good). After much warfare, the last surviving Nephite, Mormon, or maybe it was Moroni, buried the book of history inscribed upon golden plates in a hillside near Palmyra, NY. Fast forward to 1820 when Smith was 12 years old or so. He claims a revival was going thru the area (no one has found evidence of this) and he was confused by the competing claims of the protestant denominations. He says he prayed and had a vision where God and Jesus, as two separate beings, appeared to him and told him that none of the churches were true but that the truth would be revealed to him. He was later visited by the "Angel Moroni" (or maybe it was Mormon) and was told about the hidden plates. Some years later he was lead to the plates by more angels and was able to translate them into the "Book of Mormon". Smith formed a church and it began to grow. He would later declare that polygamy was God's desire to help the church grow. Like any cult there was friction and eventually Smith was jailed and then a mob broke in and killed him and some other companions. Anyway, much to much to say about Mormonism but it is very fascinating. There is oodles of evidence to show that the entire church is a sham but the members refuse to exam it or even talk about it. One thing that is the most interesting is that the farther you get away from the original Book of Mormon the more changes there have been made to it. It needs a lot of shoring up and the religion was really a work in progress early on. I guess I would say that Mormonism is a cult as it has such a strong link to Smith even today. However, at what point does a cult change into a religion? I've said before that when I looked into Islam I was struck by the parallels between it and the Mormon church. Still, Jesus and Christianity has a lot of similarities as well.

Anyway, Mormons do believe that if you do things correctly you will be a God someday of your own world. Your wife (and wives, because you get more!) will be eternally pumping out the babies to populate the world. (Early church leaders were not very good at math and didn't realize the incomprehensibility of that feat).

The angel who revealed the gold plates was Moroni. Moroni told him to go to the hill on September 22nd (or was it the 21st?) and look around for them. He did it for several years, until Moroni spoke to him and told him that the plates wouldn't be revealed until Smith took a wife - and he must take the wife before the next September. Smith convinced some poor girl (Ellie? Something like that) to marry him because "god commanded it", which was basically how he convinced 40-some other wives to marry him later on (in between his trips to the local whore-house).

Mormon was the name of the last surviving Nephite, if I recall correctly.

And don't forget the part about Joseph putting the plates with the "Egyptian like" symbols into a hat with a magic rock, sticking his head inside, and getting the translation. Twice. The first time, the pages with the translation were lost by his buddy, and so he had to retranslate. Apparently, between the time the pages were lost and re-translated, Moroni changed some of the wording, but kept the gist.

The LDS church regularly buy writings that put the church in bad light (though somehow, the magic rock story is acceptable) and hides them away so people don't find out about them.

Nuttiness.
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Moonbat
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ivorythumper
Dec 5 2007, 11:58 PM
Moonbat
Dec 5 2007, 04:41 PM
Quote:
 

What would lead someone to talk about a multiverse, instead of just a finer level of understanding the universe on an increasingly microcosmic level?


What leads one to talk about the multiverse are things like single electron diffraction, quantum mechanics appears to claim that things like electrons exist in every position in space at the same time. Indeed quantum mechanics appears to claim that everything we see around us exists in a superposition of states.

Interesting, and thanks. I can only wonder if some day folks won't look at that and think :doh: people used to think the earth was flat and at the center of the universe as well. :lol:

You can't help wonder if it's wrong, - well one is of course free to consider the possibility that any explanation or claim being made is wrong, one can consider whether it is wrong that there are other planets, or whether it is wrong that HIV causes AIDS, whether it is wrong that anthropogenic CO2 is contributing to global warming. The real question though is whether there is a good reason to consider something to be wrong (or right) given the available evidence.

The strangeness of physics is very unlikely to go away, the experimental violation of Bell's inequality demonstrates that no local hidden variable theory (or atleast no local hidden variable theory that is based on commuting variables) can account for the phenomena we observe in nature. Put in layman's language what that means is that the world is not made out of objects that have a certain position in space and a certain speed and interact with stuff near them. The intuitive world of classical physics is dead and buried.

If quantum mechanics is wrong, what replaces it is likely to be equally if not more strange, Van't Hoof for instance postulates giving the vacuum structure in order to achieve local realism, infact many quantum cosmologists think that we will have to delve beneath concepts of space and time (which might render the resulting theory conceptually meaningless, even if it is mathematically exact) if a more fundamental theory is to be found. One further point is that the multiverse interpretation is dependent on the linear nature of quantum theory and so even if a more fundamental theory replaces quantum mechanics one might find that a multiverse view survives the transition.

I should point out that i'm not yet comitted to a multiverse explanation, but it does look strong.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Moonbat
Dec 5 2007, 07:29 PM
ivorythumper
Dec 5 2007, 11:58 PM
Moonbat
Dec 5 2007, 04:41 PM
Quote:
 

What would lead someone to talk about a multiverse, instead of just a finer level of understanding the universe on an increasingly microcosmic level?


What leads one to talk about the multiverse are things like single electron diffraction, quantum mechanics appears to claim that things like electrons exist in every position in space at the same time. Indeed quantum mechanics appears to claim that everything we see around us exists in a superposition of states.

Interesting, and thanks. I can only wonder if some day folks won't look at that and think :doh: people used to think the earth was flat and at the center of the universe as well. :lol:

You can't help wonder if it's wrong, - well one is of course free to consider the possibility that any explanation or claim being made is wrong, one can consider whether it is wrong that there are other planets, or whether it is wrong that HIV causes AIDS, whether it is wrong that anthropogenic CO2 is contributing to global warming. The real question though is whether there is a good reason to consider something to be wrong (or right) given the available evidence.

The strangeness of physics is very unlikely to go away, the experimental violation of Bell's inequality demonstrates that no local hidden variable theory (or atleast no local hidden variable theory that is based on commuting variables) can account for the phenomena we observe in nature. Put in layman's language what that means is that the world is not made out of objects that have a certain position in space and a certain speed and interact with stuff near them. The intuitive world of classical physics is dead and buried.

If quantum mechanics is wrong, what replaces it is likely to be equally if not more strange, Van Hoof for instance postulates giving the vacuum structure in order to achieve local realism, infact many quantum cosmologists think that we will have to delve beneath concepts of space and time (which might render the resulting theory conceptually meaningless, even if it is mathematically exact) if a more fundamental theory is to be found. One further point is that the multiverse interpretation is dependent on the linear nature of quantum theory and so even if a more fundamental theory replaces quantum mechanics one might find that a multiverse view survives the transition.

I should point out that i'm not yet comitted to a multiverse explanation, but it does look strong.

I think I'd enjoy what you were saying, Moonbat, if only I understood it. :ph43r:
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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