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Was the MAS more effective than welfare?
Topic Started: Dec 5 2007, 09:59 AM (1,102 Views)
Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Steve Miller
Dec 6 2007, 11:29 PM
Jolly
Dec 5 2007, 03:07 PM
There's an old saying down my way...No man with a cow is truly poor.


I'm afraid that cow won't be of much comfort when one of the kids gets sick.

I don't see why not.

Unless we're talking about major medical expenses, and that has the ability to break even rich developers such as yourself....
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Jolly
Dec 7 2007, 11:41 AM
Steve Miller
Dec 6 2007, 11:29 PM
Jolly
Dec 5 2007, 03:07 PM
There's an old saying down my way...No man with a cow is truly poor.


I'm afraid that cow won't be of much comfort when one of the kids gets sick.

I don't see why not.

Unless we're talking about major medical expenses, and that has the ability to break even rich developers such as yourself....

Apparently, despite your abundant knowledge of cows, you don't understand the difference between contractors and developers.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
QuirtEvans
Dec 7 2007, 10:48 AM
Jolly
Dec 7 2007, 11:41 AM
Steve Miller
Dec 6 2007, 11:29 PM
Jolly
Dec 5 2007, 03:07 PM
There's an old saying down my way...No man with a cow is truly poor.


I'm afraid that cow won't be of much comfort when one of the kids gets sick.

I don't see why not.

Unless we're talking about major medical expenses, and that has the ability to break even rich developers such as yourself....

Apparently, despite your abundant knowledge of cows, you don't understand the difference between contractors and developers.

I do, but I also know what will make Mr. Miller bite.

The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
ivorythumper
Dec 6 2007, 01:05 PM
taiwan_girl
Dec 6 2007, 12:34 PM

I heard somewhere that back in 1880, if you lived to be 10 or 15 years old, your life expectancy was 65-70 years old. 

Today, if you live to be 10 or 15 years old, your life expectancy is 75-80 years old. 

I am going to look for the information but I cannot find it right now.

That is a very good point about changes in average life expectancy. I looked at the family tree, and before about 1880 (the advent of germ theory) many of my forebears had 8 to 12 kids with only 2 or 3 surviving infancy.

*If* that is part of the equation regarding rises in average life expectancy, then the economic impact of medical costs driven by curability might be less than presumed.

True. Average life span does not mean that the average person died at such an age. For example, if during a period half of the children died at age 2 and the others lived to be 80, the average life span would be 40. I think it's pretty well established that the longer life span of today is due in very large part to the the decrease in childhood death from infectious diseases.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
kathyk
Dec 7 2007, 11:57 AM
ivorythumper
Dec 6 2007, 01:05 PM
taiwan_girl
Dec 6 2007, 12:34 PM

I heard somewhere that back in 1880, if you lived to be 10 or 15 years old, your life expectancy was 65-70 years old. 

Today, if you live to be 10 or 15 years old, your life expectancy is 75-80 years old. 

I am going to look for the information but I cannot find it right now.

That is a very good point about changes in average life expectancy. I looked at the family tree, and before about 1880 (the advent of germ theory) many of my forebears had 8 to 12 kids with only 2 or 3 surviving infancy.

*If* that is part of the equation regarding rises in average life expectancy, then the economic impact of medical costs driven by curability might be less than presumed.

True. Average life span does not mean that the average person died at such an age. For example, if during a period half of the children died at age 2 and the others lived to be 80, the average life span would be 40. I think it's pretty well established that the longer life span of today is due in very large part to the the decrease in childhood death from infectious diseases.

Which is also the result of modern medicine ... such as vaccines against smallpox, polio, etc.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
Actually, not as much as you think Quirt. Deja vu?

Statistics initially developed as a recognized field in the social sciences in the middle of the nineteenth century. The European medical profession first made use of mounting statistical evidence to dramatize infant mortality, one of the great social problems of the century. Those telling statistics amply demonstrated the general proportions of the problem as well as pinpointing the fact that a large percentage of the dying was neonatal in character. The medical profession also insisted that these infants were passing away from a series of ailments. Number one on their list was what they called debility, followed by respiratory disorders, gastro-intestinal problems, and convulsions. While nineteenth-century European medicine did not necessarily solve this social problem, it did evidently convince the larger society that these high tolls were morally unacceptable.

Link
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Dec 7 2007, 10:02 AM

Which is also the result of modern medicine ... such as vaccines against smallpox, polio, etc.

Actually the most substantial increases in reducing infant mortality came about right at the onset of germ theory -- once doctors started washing their hands women and children stopped dying of puerperal fever and other diseases.

By washing hands, Semmelweis (1847) reduced the mortality rate from 18% to under 2.5%.

Simple soap.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Kathy and I have been through this before. The estimates are that between 300 million and 500 million people would have died in the 20th century from smallpox without a smallpox vaccine.

That would be starting approximately 53 years after the date you just cited.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Dec 7 2007, 08:51 AM
QuirtEvans
Dec 7 2007, 10:48 AM
Jolly
Dec 7 2007, 11:41 AM
Steve Miller
Dec 6 2007, 11:29 PM
Jolly
Dec 5 2007, 03:07 PM
There's an old saying down my way...No man with a cow is truly poor.


I'm afraid that cow won't be of much comfort when one of the kids gets sick.

I don't see why not.

Unless we're talking about major medical expenses, and that has the ability to break even rich developers such as yourself....

Apparently, despite your abundant knowledge of cows, you don't understand the difference between contractors and developers.

I do, but I also know what will make Mr. Miller bite.

Troll.
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
QuirtEvans
Dec 7 2007, 09:25 AM
Kathy and I have been through this before. The estimates are that between 300 million and 500 million people would have died in the 20th century from smallpox without a smallpox vaccine.

That would be starting approximately 53 years after the date you just cited.

Baloney.

Efficacy of small pox vaccine
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Daniel
Dec 7 2007, 04:13 PM
Troll.

Is that really necessary?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
jon-nyc
Dec 7 2007, 01:41 PM
Daniel
Dec 7 2007, 04:13 PM
Troll.

Is that really necessary?

No but consider the source.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Dec 7 2007, 01:41 PM
Daniel
Dec 7 2007, 04:13 PM
Troll.

Is that really necessary?

No more necessary than Jolly's twenty personal attacks on me in the last week.


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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Dec 7 2007, 01:44 PM
jon-nyc
Dec 7 2007, 01:41 PM
Daniel
Dec 7 2007, 04:13 PM
Troll.

Is that really necessary?

No but consider the source.

Shut up, bitch.

"Consider the souurce". Are you like 10 years old?

Please, hold a grudge because I didn't answer your ridiculous question. Ask me another ridiculous question. I won't answer that one either.

You are really just an insufferable punk who has to jump in and pile on and bitch whenever you get the chance. I really don't like you. Did I ever tell you that? I think you are an arrogant little prick!
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Daniel
Dec 7 2007, 01:46 PM
Shut up, bitch.

And that's exactly what I mean.

Go **** yourself Daniel.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
Daniel
Dec 7 2007, 01:46 PM

"Consider the souurce". Are you like 10 years old?

Please, hold a grudge because I didn't answer your ridiculous question. Ask me another ridiculous question. I won't answer that one either.

You are really just an insufferable punk who has to jump in and pile and bitch whenever you get the chance. I really don't like you. Did I ever tell you that? I think you are an arrogant little prick!

And this is why nobody likes to play kickball with Daniel come time for recess. It's **** like that man, that's why I don't care when Larry, Jolly or anyone else gets on your case. I'll never speak up for you.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Dec 7 2007, 01:48 PM
Daniel
Dec 7 2007, 01:46 PM
Shut up, bitch.

And that's exactly what I mean.

Go **** yourself Daniel.

and that's exactly what I mean- wah! If you didn't involve yourself in things that weren't your business, then I wouldn't mind you.

Consider the source. Wah! Asshole.
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Dec 7 2007, 01:53 PM
Daniel
Dec 7 2007, 01:46 PM

"Consider the souurce".  Are you like 10 years old? 

Please, hold a grudge because I didn't answer your ridiculous question.  Ask me another ridiculous question.  I won't answer that one either.

You are really just an insufferable punk who has to jump in and pile and bitch whenever you get the chance.  I really don't like you.  Did I ever tell you that?  I think you are an arrogant little prick!

And this is why nobody likes to play kickball with Daniel come time for recess. It's **** like that man, that's why I don't care when Larry, Jolly or anyone else gets on your case. I'll never speak up for you.

I don't give a damn whether you speak up for me. You have never had one once of integrity that would be worth me hearing your opinion about my interactions with others anyway.

It's very well and good for you to hide behind some kind of imaginary gang. You really are a punk.

You are not bringing that up to explain yourself. You are bringing that up to be a bitch.

I didn't start that crap with them, you little punk. And I don't need you to remind me of it, but thanks a lot!
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Dec 7 2007, 01:48 PM
Daniel
Dec 7 2007, 01:46 PM
Shut up, bitch.

And that's exactly what I mean.

Go **** yourself Daniel.

You're the one who jumped in to a situation in a very passive aggressive way. My sympathy for you is zero. You could have let Jon make his point. Instead you decided to inflame the situation. So go **** yourself Aqua.


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taiwan_girl
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Fulla-Carp
Daniel :hug:
Aqua Leiter :hug:

Daniel :hug: Aqua Leiter
Aqua Leiter :hug: Daniel

:thumb: next topic
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
taiwan_girl
Dec 7 2007, 02:12 PM
Daniel :hug:
Aqua Leiter :hug:

Daniel :hug: Aqua Leiter
Aqua Leiter :hug: Daniel

:thumb: next topic

:wub:
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Daniel
Dec 7 2007, 03:13 PM
Jolly
Dec 7 2007, 08:51 AM
QuirtEvans
Dec 7 2007, 10:48 AM
Jolly
Dec 7 2007, 11:41 AM
Steve Miller
Dec 6 2007, 11:29 PM
Jolly
Dec 5 2007, 03:07 PM
There's an old saying down my way...No man with a cow is truly poor.


I'm afraid that cow won't be of much comfort when one of the kids gets sick.

I don't see why not.

Unless we're talking about major medical expenses, and that has the ability to break even rich developers such as yourself....

Apparently, despite your abundant knowledge of cows, you don't understand the difference between contractors and developers.

I do, but I also know what will make Mr. Miller bite.

Troll.

You know, you are truly a piece of work.

You don't know my background with Steve, what I know about him or what he knows about me. You interject yourself in conversation like some form of parasitic worm - dumb, happy living in feces and unable to reproduce except by asexual means.

If you had a brain, you'd be dangerous.

As it is, you are a pathetic excuse for scum, which is simply no more than dried sperm...something cast aside as a piece of flotsam from a momentary self-pleasure.

Do us all a favor, stick your head in a bucket of water and take a deep breath.

If there be trolls here, sirrah, you would most certainly be the member most likely to recognize one - go look in a mirror, if you have one you haven't broken, yet.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Dec 7 2007, 02:27 PM
Daniel
Dec 7 2007, 03:13 PM
Jolly
Dec 7 2007, 08:51 AM
QuirtEvans
Dec 7 2007, 10:48 AM
Jolly
Dec 7 2007, 11:41 AM
Steve Miller
Dec 6 2007, 11:29 PM
Jolly
Dec 5 2007, 03:07 PM
There's an old saying down my way...No man with a cow is truly poor.


I'm afraid that cow won't be of much comfort when one of the kids gets sick.

I don't see why not.

Unless we're talking about major medical expenses, and that has the ability to break even rich developers such as yourself....

Apparently, despite your abundant knowledge of cows, you don't understand the difference between contractors and developers.

I do, but I also know what will make Mr. Miller bite.

Troll.

You know, you are truly a piece of work.

You don't know my background with Steve, what I know about him or what he knows about me. You interject yourself in conversation like some form of parasitic worm - dumb, happy living in feces and unable to reproduce except by asexual means.

If you had a brain, you'd be dangerous.

As it is, you are a pathetic excuse for scum, which is simply no more than dried sperm...something cast aside as a piece of flotsam from a momentary self-pleasure.

Do us all a favor, stick your head in a bucket of water and take a deep breath.

If there be trolls here, sirrah, you would most certainly be the member most likely to recognize one - go look in a mirror, if you have one you haven't broken, yet.

Well as I live an breathe, my favorite throw back and bigot. Lay off the personal attacks an ME ****head because I do know the history between you and me and I do know you have interjected yourself into threads involving me with gratuitous personal attacks over and over.

Bigot.
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QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
kathyk
Dec 7 2007, 04:28 PM
QuirtEvans
Dec 7 2007, 09:25 AM
Kathy and I have been through this before.  The estimates are that between 300 million and 500 million people would have died in the 20th century from smallpox without a smallpox vaccine.

That would be starting approximately 53 years after the date you just cited.

Baloney.

Efficacy of small pox vaccine

Baloney? Let's compare sources. You have what you have. I have the World Health Organization.

Quote:
 
In the early 1950s – 150 years after the introduction of vaccination – an estimated 50 million cases of smallpox occurred in the world each year, a figure which fell to around 10–15 million by 1967 because of vaccination.

In 1967, when WHO launched an intensified plan to eradicate smallpox, the "ancient scourge" threatened 60% of the world's population, killed every fourth victim, scarred or blinded most survivors, and eluded any form of treatment.

Through the success of the global eradication campaign, smallpox was finally pushed back to the horn of Africa and then to a single last natural case, which occurred in Somalia in 1977. A fatal laboratory-acquired case occurred in the United Kingdom in 1978. The global eradication of smallpox was certified, based on intense verification activities in countries, by a commission of eminent scientists in December 1979 and subsequently endorsed by the World Health Assembly in 1980.


http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/...x/en/index.html

And the Centers for Disease Control.

Quote:
 
There are two clinical forms of smallpox. Variola major is the severe and most common form of smallpox, with a more extensive rash and higher fever. There are four types of variola major smallpox: ordinary (the most frequent type, accounting for 90% or more of cases); modified (mild and occurring in previously vaccinated persons); flat; and hemorrhagic (both rare and very severe). Historically, variola major has an overall fatality rate of about 30%; however, flat and hemorrhagic smallpox usually are fatal. Variola minor is a less common presentation of smallpox, and a much less severe disease, with death rates historically of 1% or less.

Smallpox outbreaks have occurred from time to time for thousands of years, but the disease is now eradicated after a successful worldwide vaccination program.


http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/overv...sease-facts.asp

As between your source, and the WHO and the CDC, I'll take the WHO and the CDC.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Dec 7 2007, 10:25 AM
Kathy and I have been through this before.  The estimates are that between 300 million and 500 million people would have died in the 20th century from smallpox without a smallpox vaccine.

That would be starting approximately 53 years after the date you just cited.

I think we're talking apples and oranges.

Given the world population in 1900 was about 1.6B, a projected death rate of 30% seems rather high. The death rate of those infected with smallpox is only 30%, and obviously not every got it.

Not everyone got smallpox, but everyone was born, so the death rate of almost 1:5 for infant mortality from puerperal fever etc being reduced to less than 1:40 with the simple practice of washing hands and sterilizing things seem much more significant.

But beyond that, your original point was the curability has increased the cost of medicine. I don't disagree with that point, but I don't understand how the cost of developing the cure for smallpox (as effective as it has been) and disease eradication in general has any attributable (definable) impact on general heath costs.

EDIT: And as I said before, it's all money well spent.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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