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Was the MAS more effective than welfare?
Topic Started: Dec 5 2007, 09:59 AM (1,099 Views)
Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
A little history ...

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Political...sophy/hl677.cfm
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
So... do you belong to a loft? Do you plan to start one? :huh:
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
Yup. Those were the good ol' days.

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Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Reminds me of Steinbeck's, "The Grapes Of Wrath."
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
kathyk
Dec 5 2007, 12:40 PM
Yup.  Those were the good ol' days.

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I know. Right? What a joke. The Heritage Foundation should crawl back under the rock it crawled out from under. :wacko:
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Great photos!!! I have no idea what they have to do with the question at hand but they are great photos.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Bring back poor houses, too. They were greeeat! :thumb:
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big al
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Bull-Carp
I think that the Great Depression was a large part of the demise of the religious, ethnic, and fraternal societies as mutual aid organizations. When the entire community or state was was devastated by the mill closures or the dust bowl or any of the other social problems of the 1930s, neighbor had a hard time helping neighbor because they were all in trouble.

Professor Beito's book might shed some more light on that thesis. I'm not old enough to know from personal experience.

Big Al
Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
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katie
Fulla-Carp
Fascinating link Jolly. I enjoyed reading that.

I recognize some of these pics .. Unforgettable. Reminds me of a photographer named Walker Evans. His books "Let Us Now Praise Famous Men" and "And Their Children After Them" are simply excellent. We own both. I learned so much while living down South.

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big al
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Bull-Carp
Katie, if you like to look at those pictures, then you need to know about this site: America from the Great Depression to World War II: Photographs from the FSA and OWI, ca. 1935-1945. Walker Evans was one of the photographers of this project.

Big Al
Location: Western PA

"jesu, der simcha fun der man's farlangen."
-bachophile
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
I can tell that Kathy must not have perused the article. I don't worry much about Daniel, since thy name is superficial.

But a few comments about Mutual Aid Societies, and then a few comments about the Great Depression...

The concept that made MAS work, is much the same as the principle behind the local savings and loan (before deregulation). A group of people would band together, pooling their resources and money for the betterment of all. Contained within the charter of the organization was an outline of its primary responsibilities. Some focused on medical care, some focused on the financial, but I would submit that a MAS could deliver necessary services to its members at lower cost than a Federal program. OTOH, I know some of you love big government, so the idea of individuals taking charge of their lives in such a manner must be anathema.

As to the Great Depression...please note that business failures were not much higher during the height of the Depression than they were in the 1920's, although the failures were much higher than in the 1940's and 1950's - but then we were the preminent economic power in the world during those two decades.

http://ingrimayne.com/econ/EconomicCatastr...Depression.html

Note also, that if you had kept your job and were making the same salary in 1932 as in 1929, you were doing quite a bit better financially.

And as riveting as the Depression pictures may be, they do not address the initial posting of this topic, other than perhaps the rise of government welfare within society. OTOH, maybe we were too poor to notice, but my family never received "assistance" from the government. Or perhaps since we knew how to make our own way, and were not part of the horrendous farming practices of the Dustbowl, the Depression was tough, but not devastating.

There's an old saying down my way...No man with a cow is truly poor.

I understand that statement. I would surmise many of you do not.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Dec 5 2007, 02:07 PM
I would submit that a MAS could deliver necessary services to its members at lower cost than a Federal program. OTOH, I know some of you love big government, so the idea of individuals taking charge of their lives in such a manner must be anathema.

Think much of me or not, what a bunch of crap.

1. MAS were a product of their time, a fact referred to in Big Al's post. Some of you love to live in the past. It's the past. It's over and done with.

2. If MAS, or anything similar, could have solved the problems of poverty and lack of medical care, they would have, but guess what, it was the big evil government that created the better circumstances we have today.

Individuals coming together in groups? And what would the biggest group be, the one that everyone belongs to? That would be the U.S., hence the government runs these programs. Need taken care of. Done. And it is simply a lie that private enterprise could do these things cheaper.
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kathyk
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Pisa-Carp
Admittedly, I didn't have time to read the whole article but the gist is pretty clear - even from the title; i.e. lamenting the end of fraternal societies as they were in their hey day because of the emergence of government social welfare.

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Mutual aid was a creature of necessity. Once this necessity ended, so too did the primary reason for the existence of fraternalism. Without a return to this necessity any revival of mutual aid will remain limited. Moreover, fraternal membership, although still heavily working class, no longer includes the very poor who most need social welfare services.


I have nothing against the concept of fraternal societies. My point in the pictures is that they, in and of themselves, rose woefully short of being able to provide for the needs of the impoverished in this country - particularly during the great depression.

Frank, those pictures *are* the Grapes of Wrath. Although it was a novel, it spoke of the plight of untold hundreds of thousands during that time.

Jolly, a cow like anything else is a commodity - and as you point out, often a very valuable one. Thank God we have a system that doesn't let all of the cowless people fall through the cracks.
Blogging in Palestine: http://kksjournal.com/
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
There are lots of mutual aid societies still around.

We now call them insurance companies, but if you trace their histories, you will find an MAS in the past of many.

jf
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Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
I think Al has it right. Mutual aid societies work reasonably well for individual incidents spread out over time.

Mass incidents? Not so much. Think of the run on the bank in It's a Wonderful Life.

I tend to doubt whether mutual aid societies would have been able to cope with Hurricane Katrina.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
Oh, that's right. Like the Fireman's Fund insurance company that my grandmother retired from (American Express bought them but I don't know if they still own them).
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Do we have better circumstances for the poor today? I am not so sure of that.

Whether they were all around better or not is academic. There is a lesson to be learned here that has been forgotten - charity begins in the home, or perhaps more accurately the local area. There are still agencies and organizations that try to help - food pantries, clothing exchanges ad free stores, Janet just attended a luncheon to support Dress For Success, an organization that provides quality clothing to women who are trying to get into the workforce and raise themselves up.

We support several of these, most notably the Rape-Abuse shelter.

Perhaps the government can provide subsistence, but their solutions clearly do not uplift the individual or heal the soul like individual efforts can.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
I totally agree with that, Mik.

But mass events can overwhelm local services.

Plus, at the end of the day, we're one country. The quality of the safety net shouldn't be dramatically different depending on where you live.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I am not saying we should do away with the larger safety net - but perhaps supplement it more than we do today with local efforts appropriate to the situation.

I don't know a lot of people who could never have used some help at some time in their life.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Daniel
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HOLY CARP!!!
:thumb:
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
The one cow comment...somebody that has actually been raised on the rural route will have to explain to Kathy that a cow is not just another commodity. But for shorts, a cow provides milk, butter, meat, fertilize, farmland renewal. You can do things with a cow (or some can make the argument for a couple of Nubians) that you can't do with a cornfield, or a bin of milo.

But, we digress...
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
The photos in this thread were of a very small minority of people affected by various ills of nature and government. Population-wise they were much less than exist in poverty today.

Mass events overwhelm even the mighty federal government Quirt. What's your point? Remember Katrina?

The hurricane of 1900 that devastated Galveston was horrendous in terms of loss of life and property yet the people rebuilt. The used surplus army tents as temporary shelters, they re-organized their own local city government to more efficiently and effectively rebuild their city. There was no FEMA or other federal agency to screw things up.

Same thing with poverty and medical care. The poor are still poor. Their money is devalued to an all time low precisely because of the policies of our government. The price of medicine and medical care have never been higher. It has never been so screwed up and the government has never been less involved than it is right now. To keep insisting that the government is the only answer to these issues all the while staring abject failure of government to do these things properly in the face, is insanity.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
The price of medicine is higher because our ability to treat disease is higher.

Sure, it cost less to get treated 100 years ago, but a lot more patients died from things that are curable today.

If you want to return to a time when the average lifespan was 15 years (or more) less, be my guest.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
QuirtEvans
Dec 5 2007, 04:56 PM
The price of medicine is higher because our ability to treat disease is higher.

Sure, it cost less to get treated 100 years ago, but a lot more patients died from things that are curable today.

If you want to return to a time when the average lifespan was 15 years (or more) less, be my guest.

Well....maximum lifespan may not be the pinnacle of existence.

As one old Indian doc once told me, "Here in America you concentrate too much on quantity and not enough on quality".
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Dec 5 2007, 03:56 PM
The price of medicine is higher because our ability to treat disease is higher.

Sure, it cost less to get treated 100 years ago, but a lot more patients died from things that are curable today.


Interesting point, Quirt. I had not considered that, and will have to put it in my hopper. I am not sure if that works economically given all the other variables that drive up and set prices (inflation, insurance, litigation, numbers of providers, regulations, standards for procedures, etc) but I would think that the question of curability has some impact.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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