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Jesus! If they they're not molesting kids . . .
Topic Started: Aug 8 2007, 05:16 PM (1,060 Views)
Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Bang. Nailed it in one, John. That these actions were covered up and the offenders were given the equivalent of a slap on the wrist, even rewarded in some instances, gives the appearance that this disgusting stuff was condoned by the institution. To me, THAT'S thoroughly repugnant.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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The 89th Key
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I haven't followed the cases carefully, but could someone (John or Frank, etc) please supply examples of when a priest was found guilty of child abuse and the church gave them a slap on the wrist or a reward? Trust me, if this was the case, I would be disgusted just as well, but I haven't followed these cases very well.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Aug 9 2007, 03:53 AM
My problem isn't with the fact that some priests are imperfect, they're only human beings after all. In this part of the world there is the perception among many church-goers that the church establishment conducted a cover-up of these activities, and that one of the primary movers in this cover up, Cardinal Law, rather than being fired, was shunted out of the way and given a nice little retirement job in Vatican City. If true, I think this is appalling.

That is nonsense. IF the DA in Mass had prosecuted and convicted Law, the Vatican would have handed him over. Blame your own elected officials for not doing their job.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
ivorythumper
Aug 9 2007, 02:33 PM
John D'Oh
Aug 9 2007, 03:53 AM
My problem isn't with the fact that some priests are imperfect, they're only human beings after all. In this part of the world there is the perception among many church-goers that the church establishment conducted a cover-up of these activities, and that one of the primary movers in this cover up, Cardinal Law, rather than being fired, was shunted out of the way and given a nice little retirement job in Vatican City. If true, I think this is appalling.

That is nonsense. IF the DA in Mass had prosecuted and convicted Law, the Vatican would have handed him over. Blame your own elected officials for not doing their job.

I didn't elect the officials. I'm not allowed to vote. Let's face it, any number of elected officials should also be in jail, Senator Kennedy springing to mind for some reason. Sometimes, it's necessary to show moral leadership - in this instance, the Roman Catholic church failed abominably, and nothing you say is going to convince me otherwise. The bastard actually got to give mass while the rest of the world paid their respects to JP2.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Aug 9 2007, 12:14 PM
ivorythumper
Aug 9 2007, 02:33 PM
John D'Oh
Aug 9 2007, 03:53 AM
My problem isn't with the fact that some priests are imperfect, they're only human beings after all. In this part of the world there is the perception among many church-goers that the church establishment conducted a cover-up of these activities, and that one of the primary movers in this cover up, Cardinal Law, rather than being fired, was shunted out of the way and given a nice little retirement job in Vatican City. If true, I think this is appalling.

That is nonsense. IF the DA in Mass had prosecuted and convicted Law, the Vatican would have handed him over. Blame your own elected officials for not doing their job.

I didn't elect the officials. I'm not allowed to vote. Let's face it, any number of elected officials should also be in jail, Senator Kennedy springing to mind for some reason. Sometimes, it's necessary to show moral leadership - in this instance, the Roman Catholic church failed abominably, and nothing you say is going to convince me otherwise. The bastard actually got to give mass while the rest of the world paid their respects to JP2.

It's not a question of whether YOU voted or not, eligible or not. That is a bizarre redress.

The state attorney general and DAs are elected officials. It is their job to enforce laws and prosecute offenses. If they were remiss it is NO ONE else's job to do their job for them.

I would have had NO problem with Law being prosecuted, or anyone who breaks any law. But it is entirely misplaced to blame the Vatican on this. Had he been prosecuted and convicted then the Vatican would have canceled his subscription. As it was, he was sidelined to the Vatican. You might think he has a cushy exile -- no doubt he does -- but in romanitas he has been humiliated. Had I been pope, I would have had him live out the rest of his life in the seclusion of a monastery under strict penance, or washing bedsores of AIDs victims in Africa, but that's not my call.

It might be impolitic for him to celebrate Mass in public, but he could have had his faculties revoked by an adverse judgment under either civil or canon law. As it was, it was neither since there has been no trial.

As distasteful as that might be, that is precisely what "justice" demands. Due process is due all people, not just the ones you happen to like.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Quote:
 
Had I been pope, I would have had him live out the rest of his life in the seclusion of a monastery under strict penance, or washing bedsores of AIDs victims in Africa, but that's not my call.


I think that's my point. Somebody, somewhere made a bad decision. In my opinion people both in the justice system and in the Roman Catholic Church made bad decisions.

89th - Law wasn't a child abuser, but he did apparently instigate a cover-up of the activities in the Boston Diocese. He also moved Priests who were suspected of child abuse to other areas, where they continued to commit abuse.

Wiki link

It's a very sad story, and shows how good men can do very bad things.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
If it's any consolation, John, according to my friends in Rome, Law is pretty much held in disgrace there. As grand as the title sounds, being an archpriest of Santa Maria Maggiore is being put out to pasture in the Roman way of doing things.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Aug 9 2007, 05:30 PM


It's a very sad story, and shows how good men can do very bad things.

Listen, the Catholic Church make a mistake. They let a bunch of gay people into the priesthood--and they molested a bunch of boys. A BIG mistake. Then some straight guys tryed to cover up for them. Another big mistake.

The Catholic Church has started a vigorous program of no gays in the priesthood, and of reporting all abuse gay or otherwise.

Nasty, but gays shouldn't be priests, and their fellow travellers shouldn't be bishops.

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
That wasn't a very subtle diversionary tactic Tom, even by your standards. :lol:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Aug 9 2007, 05:48 PM
That wasn't a very subtle diversionary tactic Tom, even by your standards.  :lol:

True story, though.

The problem will be solved--and that's how the Church is going to do it. And it will work. Not PC--but extremely effective.
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AlbertaCrude
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ivorythumper
Aug 9 2007, 03:39 PM
If it's any consolation, John, according to my friends in Rome, Law is pretty much held in disgrace there. As grand as the title sounds, being an archpriest of Santa Maria Maggiore is being put out to pasture in the Roman way of doing things.

Why not defrock his ass and send him back to the US of A to face the secular music?

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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
AlbertaCrude
Aug 9 2007, 06:24 PM

Why not defrock his ass and send him back to the US of A to face the secular music?

They could have had him if they wanted him. Seems there was no interest.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
TomK
Aug 9 2007, 06:32 PM
AlbertaCrude
Aug 9 2007, 06:24 PM

Why not defrock his ass and send him back to the US of A to face the secular music?

They could have had him if they wanted him. Seems there was no interest.

I suspect it may have been case of 'it's not what you know, but who you know....' that saved him. I'm not basing that on anything other than observation of Boston's establishments at work.

Where the hell is Whitey Bulger, anyway?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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AlbertaCrude
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TomK
Aug 9 2007, 04:32 PM
AlbertaCrude
Aug 9 2007, 06:24 PM

Why not defrock his ass and send him back to the US of A to face the secular music?

They could have had him if they wanted him. Seems there was no interest.

What about in the civil system? Named as a third party by one or more of the victims?

Disgraced, exiled or cloistered the Big Kahuna in the Vatican should defrock his sorry ass.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Aug 9 2007, 04:20 PM
TomK
Aug 9 2007, 04:32 PM
AlbertaCrude
Aug 9 2007, 06:24 PM

Why not defrock his ass and send him back to the US of A to face the secular music?

They could have had him if they wanted him. Seems there was no interest.

What about in the civil system? Namee as a third party by one or more of the victims?

Disgraced, exiled or cloistered the Big Kahuna should in the Vatican should defrock his sorry ass.

Sta Maria Maggiore is the Vatican gulag.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Maybe, but in my opinion he deserves digs slightly more similar to the real thing.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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AlbertaCrude
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ivorythumper
Aug 9 2007, 05:59 PM

Sta Maria Maggiore is the Vatican gulag.


We know you're the Pope's water boy here but..... c'mon, give us all break.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Aug 9 2007, 10:11 PM
ivorythumper
Aug 9 2007, 05:59 PM

Sta Maria Maggiore is the Vatican gulag.


We know you're the Pope's water boy here but..... c'mon, give us all break.

That would be aquifer.

And I knew you couldn't resist. :lol:
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
kenny
Aug 8 2007, 06:32 PM
Requiring people to not marry attracts people with problems.

kenny, your hatred of the Catholic Church is really getting old, man. I'm surprised the stick you use to beat that dead horse is still in one piece. For a guy who's usually very much in touch with life's optimisms, I'm surprised to hear you be so consistently anti-Church. Yes, for you the non marriage thing sucks. A bunch. What use is there to continuously gripe about other isolated incidents unrelated to that issue? Surely they're all not as evil as it seems you're supposing?
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
:yawn:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
ivorythumper
Aug 9 2007, 11:46 PM
AlbertaCrude
Aug 9 2007, 10:11 PM
ivorythumper
Aug 9 2007, 05:59 PM

Sta Maria Maggiore is the Vatican gulag.


We know you're the Pope's water boy here but..... c'mon, give us all break.

That would be aquifer.

And I knew you couldn't resist. :lol:

I was first inclined to write:

"We all know you are a modern version that notorious 16th century Dominican snake oil salesman, Johann Tetzel, but..."

But then I thought it better to make things more readable and inclusive for the unwashed majority here and referred to you as the Pope's water boy (which, of course, you come across as being and as well, admit as much, albeit only in the erudite Latin language).

In retrospect I ought to have stayed the course with my intuition.

In any case, Dewey's retort was most apt.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Aug 10 2007, 07:31 AM
ivorythumper
Aug 9 2007, 11:46 PM
AlbertaCrude
Aug 9 2007, 10:11 PM
ivorythumper
Aug 9 2007, 05:59 PM

Sta Maria Maggiore is the Vatican gulag.


We know you're the Pope's water boy here but..... c'mon, give us all break.

That would be aquifer.

And I knew you couldn't resist. :lol:

I was first inclined to write:

"We all know you are a modern version that famous Dominican snake oil salesman Johann Tetzel, but..."

But then I thought it better to make things more readable and inclusive for the unwashed majority here and referred to you as the Pope's water boy (which, of course, you come across as being and as well, admit as much albeit only the erudite Latin language).

In retrospect I ought to have stayed the course with my intuition.

In any case, Dewey's retort was most apt.

You first inclination was entirely misplaced since whatever Tetzel was doing had already been long condemned under Church law.

It is dullwitted to call a committed Catholic the pope's water boy. Of course I hold him in high estimation as the Vicar of Christ. You don't, not my problem.

Furthermore, you show yourself to be an elitist and superiorist intellectual snob thinking that our fellow members here need thing to be dumbed down so that they can understand your profundity and amazing erudition. I trust the people here are sufficiently intelligent to speak to a peers in every sense of the word.

Have a nice day.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Posted Image

Well!
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
ivorythumper
Aug 10 2007, 10:40 AM
It is dullwitted to call a committed Catholic the pope's water boy. Of course I hold him in high estimation as the Vicar of Christ. You don't, not my problem.

Furthermore, you show yourself to be an elitist and superiorist intellectual snob thinking that our fellow members here need thing to be dumbed down so that they can understand your profundity and amazing erudition. I trust the people here are sufficiently intelligent to speak to a peers in every sense of the word.

Have a nice day.


Careful you don't spill any water there Erasmus.
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