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Tom Tancredo on Bombing Mecca
Topic Started: Aug 5 2007, 09:20 AM (2,053 Views)
QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
First, Fox News:

Quote:
 
A Colorado congressman told a radio show host that the U.S. could "take out" Islamic holy sites if Muslim fundamentalist terrorists attacked the country with nuclear weapons.

Rep. Tom Tancredo (search) made his remarks Friday on WFLA-AM in Orlando, Fla. His spokesman stressed he was only speaking hypothetically.

Talk show host Pat Campbell (search) asked the Littleton Republican how the country should respond if terrorists struck several U.S. cities with nuclear weapons.

"Well, what if you said something like — if this happens in the United States, and we determine that it is the result of extremist, fundamentalist Muslims, you know, you could take out their holy sites," Tancredo answered.

"You're talking about bombing Mecca," Campbell said.

"Yeah," Tancredo responded.

The congressman later said he was "just throwing out some ideas" and that an "ultimate threat" might have to be met with an "ultimate response."

Spokesman Will Adams said Sunday the four-term congressman doesn't support threatening holy Islamic sites but that Tancredo was grappling with the hypothetical situation of a terrorist strike deadlier than the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

"We have an enemy with no uniform, no state, who looks like you and me and only emerges right before an attack. How do we go after someone like that?" Adams said.

"What is near and dear to them? They're willing to sacrifice everything in this world for the next one. What is the pressure point that would deter them from their murderous impulses?" he said.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,162795,00.html

Sounds like the spokesman is trying to give ol' Tom a way out, doesn't it?

Guess again.

Quote:
 
WASHINGTON (CNN) — Colorado Rep. Tom Tancredo’s campaign stood by his assertion that bombing holy Muslim sites would serve as a good “deterrent” to prevent Islamic fundamentalists from attacking the United States, his spokeswoman said Friday.

“This shows that we mean business,” said Bay Buchanan, a senior Tancredo adviser. “There’s no more effective deterrent than that. But he is open-minded and willing to embrace other options. This is just a means to deter them from attacking us.”

On Tuesday, Tancredo warned a group of Iowans that another terrorist attack would “cause a worldwide economic collapse.” IowaPolitics.com recorded his comments.

“If it is up to me, we are going to explain that an attack on this homeland of that nature would be followed by an attack on the holy sites in Mecca and Medina,” Tancredo said. “That is the only thing I can think of that might deter somebody from doing what they would otherwise do. If I am wrong, fine, tell me, and I would be happy to do something else. But you had better find a deterrent, or you will find an attack.”

Tom Casey, a deputy spokesman for the State Department, told CNN’s Elise Labott that the congressman’s comments were “reprehensible” and “absolutely crazy.” Tancredo was widely criticized in 2005 for making a similar suggestion.


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/...ly-sites-first/
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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George K
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Finally
Quote:
 
bombing holy Muslim sites would serve as a good “deterrent” to prevent Islamic fundamentalists from attacking the United States

Unbelievable.
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Frank_W
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Disturbing... And if we DID bomb Mecca and reduce it to fused glass, then what? We've lost the moral high ground, cashed in our last bit of leverage, and it would turn the world's Muslims, ALL OF THEM, against us. This guy is a complete idiot.
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Dewey
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If that is reprehensible or crazy, I've been so for quite some time - I've said the exact same thing for several years, and like Tancredo, I stand by it.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
wow, if he thinks making a martyr of religious leaders is a good idea, just wait till he martyrs the religion itself. What could possible go wrong.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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1hp
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Fulla-Carp

I don't agree. From everything I've heard over the past few years it's Islam or death. There is no middle ground - the Koran is very specific. I believe that ultimately the non Islamic nations of the world (China and Russia included) are going to have a showdown with Islam. Mecca and Medina will be ground zero in this war.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................
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Frank_W
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By far, I think a better deterrent, would be to find some nameless hilltop in North America, and with one bomb, reduce it to a crater, and have Al-Jizz, NBC, ABC, CNN, BBC, and every other news network on hand to film and distribute that video all over the Middle East. On that footage would also be "secret" film of munitions plants, showing an assembly line of bombs and bullets all being run through vats of "pig's blood." The point would be made.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
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Jolly
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Dewey
Aug 5 2007, 11:24 AM
If that is reprehensible or crazy, I've been so for quite some time - I've said the exact same thing for several years, and like Tancredo, I stand by it.

As have I.

The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
1hp
Aug 5 2007, 09:28 AM
I don't agree. From everything I've heard over the past few years it's Islam or death. There is no middle ground - the Koran is very specific. I believe that ultimately the non Islamic nations of the world (China and Russia included) are going to have a showdown with Islam. Mecca and Medina will be ground zero in this war.

Yep. If we are serious about fighting the holy war the Islamofascists have declared on us, then Mecca is on the target list.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
make sure you get every last muslim and while you're at it expunge the religion from teh history books. Because if you don't, pretty much every future follower of that religion will feel morally justified in murdering anybody who gets in their way. We won't be able to count on basic human decency coloring the actions and beliefs of the "moderate" ones anymore.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Frank_W
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I understand the sentiment, and indeed, have thought and said the same thing, before. The results, however, far from being a deterrent, would spark WWIII outright, and the United States would be playing the role of the villain.

Remember the world's outrage when the ancient Buddha statues were blown up by the Taliban. How much worse would it be, if the United States obliterated Mecca? And no, according to the Geneva Convention, Mecca is NOT on the approved target list.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
KILL! KILL! KILL!!!

Yeah, That's what Jesus would do I guess.

:rolleyes2:
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
Aug 5 2007, 09:43 AM
KILL! KILL! KILL!!!

Yeah, That's what Jesus would do I guess.

:rolleyes2:

this is why people who put their religion above their lives and the lives of everybody else are fundamentally dangerous, no matter how well they seem to fit into any given society at any given time.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Mark
Aug 5 2007, 09:43 AM
KILL! KILL! KILL!!!

Yeah, That's what Jesus would do I guess.

:rolleyes2:

No, that's what Patton would do. :sword:
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
I dunno, Horace. I think, to some extent, it's a fundamental disregard for the value of a human life. There are some people who have a far greater regard for the value of a human life among their own circle (whether that's a family, a locality, a religion, or a country) than they do for a human life outside that circle.

It's the sort of attitude that made slavery possible 200 years ago. Even if they aren't very religious.

I am startled that Dewey can reconcile this with his usual beliefs, though.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Horace
Aug 5 2007, 09:49 AM
this is why people who put their religion above their lives and the lives of everybody else are fundamentally dangerous, no matter how well they seem to fit into any given society at any given time.

You mean like Muslims?

I don't think the West is fighting this war because of our religion; it's a holy war for them, not for us. But if we don't respond as if it is, we're wrong-footed from the start.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
I understand the thinking behind it, but unfortunately we would be nuking Saudi Arabia - not a terribly great idea to be talking about at a time when they seem unable to carry out even minor attacks on the US over the last six years. (hint - does 'fighting the terrorists over there, not over here' ring a bell?)

But I do believe the terrorists are on notice that should we be attacked with WMDs that there will be major retaliation, probably aimed at crippling their economies as opposed to population centers.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Red Rice
Aug 5 2007, 01:53 PM
Mark
Aug 5 2007, 09:43 AM
KILL!  KILL!  KILL!!!

Yeah, That's what Jesus would do I guess.

:rolleyes2:

No, that's what Patton would do. :sword:

There was a reaon that Eisenhower and not Patton was in the decision-making position.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Pianolicious
Senior Carp
Tancredo doesn't understand that there is no money in ending a war.

We could have won in Vietnam and we could have won in Iraq, but there's just gobs of money to be made staying put. I don't expect Mecca to be bombed any time soon.
Sit tibi vita longa et omnia bona!!! -- Dr. Spock
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
Frank_W
Aug 5 2007, 09:40 AM
Remember the world's outrage when the ancient Buddha statues were blown up by the Taliban. How much worse would it be, if the United States obliterated Mecca? And no, according to the Geneva Convention, Mecca is NOT on the approved target list.

But despite the world's outrage, they were in fact blown up. And then, when the Islamofascists saw that the world's outrage was practically meaningless, they blew up the World Trade Center, which wasn't on the Geneva Convention's target list either.

The question is whether or not you think we're facing an existential threat. If you don't think we are, then of course the thought of bombing Mecca is abhorent. But thus far evidence suggests that the enemy doesn't think the same way.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
Tancredo is talking trash. We are never going to do something like that. What exactly would bombing some holy site get us? The only think I can think of is some sort of "revenge." And frankly, we aren't in that business.
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Aug 5 2007, 09:57 AM
There was a reaon that Eisenhower and not Patton was in the decision-making position.

And there were times that Eisenhower would have been better off following Patton's advice.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Beyond silly, especially since the declared strategy of Al Qaeda is to goad the US into actions that will get the muslim world to rise up in unison against the west. Announcing that the next attack will be met with the destruction of Mecca may in fact accelerate rather than deter the next attack.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Mikhailoh
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Pianolicious
Aug 5 2007, 02:01 PM
Tancredo doesn't understand that there is no money in ending a war.

We could have won in Vietnam and we could have won in Iraq, but there's just gobs of money to be made staying put. I don't expect Mecca to be bombed any time soon.

So let me get this straight - you think we are spending the billions we are there in order to MAKE money?
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
I am startled that Dewey can reconcile this with his usual beliefs, though.


Here's how I can. We did not start the war, already declared, against us by radical Islamists. Therefore, we have only two choices: fight it, or concede it. I choose to fight it, because I feel it is worth fighting for, and, unlike some who share my faith, I do not agree that my faith requires me to be a pacifist.

Every war is, and has always been, a human tragedy. It's exactly because I feel that warfare is so awful that I want to fight it as effectively as possible, and putting a stop to the madness as quickly, and with as few deaths of innocents - an inevitability in any war - as possible.

The radical Islamist movement by definition calls for the elimination and subjugation of my faith, my civilization, and my values. Negotiation against an enemy so defined is meaningless, becaue the enemy will never negotiate away its deeply held belief that we must be subjugated. Similarly, diplomacy is ineffective because we are not fighting a state-defined enemy.

Having come to the conclusion that these two tools, which may sometimes be able to avert war, aren't effective in this situation, the only remaining option short of surrender, is to fight - and to fight to win.

The only way to win a war is totally and unconditionally. Any other outcome of a war based on ideology is no end to the war at all; it's merely a temporary cease-fire. And the only way to win totally and unconditionally, is to fight on terms as brutal as, and if possible, more brutally than, your opponent. In order to win such a war, one must be able to threaten, and if necessary, to destroy, that which the enemy values most. It's only through exhibiting absolute willingness to cause utter destruction of that which they value most, that will either a.)alter their ideology; or b.)simply destroy both their will, and ability, to continue to fight.

That's nothing new. That's the way wars, at least wars of ideology, have always been won. The only question left to ask is this: in full understanding of the dehumanizing horror of war that occurs to both the aggressor and the defender, is the war worth fighting in the long term? I've decided that it is, so if we're going to fight it, we should fight it in the only way in which it can be won. We can't delude ourselves by pretending that war is something that it isn't, and that we can engage in it without ugly and even contradictory behaviors. War, said another Ohioan who felt the same way I do, truly is hell. And we're foolish to not recognize it.

No defender has ever, or ever, will be defeated by a defender who refuses to hit him where it hurts. If an enemy insists on engaging me in this war, I would fight it without any such false propriety or suicidal attempts at nobility. And by being that harsh, the bloodshed and the horror of war will be less. That's my ultimate goal.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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