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New Deal on Immigration Bill
Topic Started: May 17 2007, 10:35 AM (543 Views)
Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 

BBC NEWS
[size=6]US 'deal' on illegal immigrants[/size]

The White House and the US Senate have reached a deal on an immigration bill that could give legal status to millions of illegal immigrants.


Democratic Senator Edward Kennedy confirmed the agreement that would also establish a merit-based system for future migrants.

US President George W Bush is expected to endorse the bill, which strengthens border controls, Mr Kennedy said.

The proposal comes after months of bitterly fought debate over the issue.

Points system

After first paying visa fees and a $5,000 (£2,530) fine - and returning to their home country - many of the 12m illegal immigrants in the US would be eligible for the planned "Z visa".

Holders of this proposed visa would have to wait between eight and 13 years for a decision on their permanent residency application.

Another key component of the deal was the establishment of a "points system" that would emphasise new immigrants' education, language and job skills over family connections in awarding green cards.

New limits would also apply to US citizens bringing foreign-born parents into the country.

The bill also establishes a two-year temporary guest worker visa.

Holders of this visa would be allowed to renew their papers twice, but would have to return home for a year between each stint, and would have virtually no chance of gaining permanent residency or citizenship under this program.

The bill is expected to cause passionate debate in the Senate next week.

Immigration reform has been one of Mr Bush's top priorities in government, after the so-called "war on terror".
Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/americas/6667257.stm

Published: 2007/05/17 18:26:24 GMT

© BBC MMVII


Thoughts?
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
NO! NO! NO! :veryangry: You can't BELIEVE the number of hoops and bull$hit that my wife and I had to go through to get her Green Card! F'ck illegal aliens! They aren't immigrants. They are criminals. F'cking deport any of them who don't have legitimate citizenry in their families, (i.e. illegal women who have given birth to children who are automatically American citizens), and the ones that can't be deported, levy fines, garnish wages, or whatever it takes, until they are working and contributing to our society. Everytime they use a social program like the hospital or the ER, a notice is sent to the equivalent of an INS parole officer.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
How is the government going to find them all to fine them, make them pay visa fees, and send them back to their home country according to this plan? It seems like we don't have any idea where or who most of them are. Is this plan just to give the appearance that we're addressing the issue?
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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Frank_W
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If they are going to do all that, just pick them up and deport them. Period! Cripes...
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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CrashTest
Pisa-Carp
Frank, I think your attitude is dangerous - it shows a great disconnect between reality and what you think is going on. Sure, there are bad guys who are immigrants, just as there are bad guys who are American - but there are also many good immigrants who deserve a chance.
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Frank_W
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You've got your head up your ass. What part of "ILLEGAL" did you miss? By the very definition, they are NOT "good citizens."

Anyone willing to immigrate to the United States LEGALLY deserves every chance and every right and freedom that the rest of LEGAL citizens are entitled to.

I think YOUR attitude shows a fundamental disconnect between what you think is happening and what is ACTUALLY happening.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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CrashTest
Pisa-Carp
I think you have your head up your ass - and I think you know how difficult the legal process actually is. Not everyone, especially poorer immigrants, have the resources to pursue it as it currently stands.

Why do you think there is so much debate and controversy currently? Because the system is broken. Completely broken, and unfair as it currently stands.

Give them a good system and I am sure many will gladly immigrate legally.

As you said you went through this system, so I am sure you are just annoyed that a new better system is being put into place - which means saved time and trouble that you had to go through.
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
CrashTest
May 17 2007, 12:12 PM
I think you have your head up your ass - and I think you know how difficult the legal process actually is. Not everyone, especially poorer immigrants, have the resources to pursue it as it currently stands.

Why do you think there is so much debate and controversy currently? Because the system is broken. Completely broken, and unfair as it currently stands.

Give them a good system and I am sure many will gladly immigrate legally.

As you said you went through this system, so I am sure you are just annoyed that a new better system is being put into place - which means saved time and trouble that you had to go through.

I disagree that the system is completely unfair and broken. It's a pain in the @ss, but the US still admits almost as many legal immigrants (around 1 million a year) as the rest of the world combined, and a lot of them are as poor as any illegal immigrant.

Illegal immigrants come here illegally because they want to make money as quickly as possible, and don't feel doing things legally is in their best interest. They shouldn't be allowed to get away with it; it's a slap in the face to everyone who follows the rules.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
Frank_W
May 17 2007, 02:41 PM
NO! NO! NO! :veryangry:

:thumb:

Well said, Frank!

Illegal aliens drive the wages down for the lower classes and work dirt cheap to keep the rich richer.

I personally don't knowingly hire illegal aliens, but they keep the general cost of employment in Florida down to minimum wage--without benefits for most service related employees.
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
CrashTest
May 17 2007, 12:12 PM
I think you have your head up your ass - and I think you know how difficult the legal process actually is. Not everyone, especially poorer immigrants, have the resources to pursue it as it currently stands.

Why do you think there is so much debate and controversy currently? Because the system is broken. Completely broken, and unfair as it currently stands.

Give them a good system and I am sure many will gladly immigrate legally.

As you said you went through this system, so I am sure you are just annoyed that a new better system is being put into place - which means saved time and trouble that you had to go through.

No, that is NOT why I am angry, which only further proves my point. I would wage a battle of wits with you, but you're unarmed. ;)

Not really... But you haven't been through it, and you don't have relatives who have been through it. And I'll tell you something else: It doesn't cost anything to go to the embassy of whatever the target country is, and get the information for obtaining a work visa. It doesn't cost anything to begin the legal immigration process. It takes time, effort, and one hell of a lot of paperwork, but no: It is not something only open to people with money. Certainly, when I left the Army and applied for a work visa in Japan, I barely had one red penny to my name. And likewise, when we went through the immigration process for my wife's visa, we STILL didn't have any money.

Please, before presenting an argument, be informed.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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CrashTest
Pisa-Carp
There are a lot of people here illegally who would give as much as possible in order to become legal - so I think it is only fair to give them a better and more open system in which to do so.

People here illegally do not have the same rights as Americans - they can't get a drivers license, can't work legally, and can't leave the country amongst many restrictions - so why would they want to avoid becoming legal? Because the process itself is confusing, drawn out, and unfair.

Hopefully the new system will change that.
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
CrashTest
May 17 2007, 01:20 PM
People here illegally do not have the same rights as Americans - they can't get a drivers license, can't work legally, and can't leave the country amongst many restrictions - so why would they want to avoid becoming legal? .

This statement is almost entirely false or irrelevant.

11 states give driver's licenses to illegal aliens. Once they have that driver's license, they can use it to get other legal documents and ID. Or they drive with fake licenses or without licenses altogether... having broken one law, they probably aren't too scrupulous about breaking others.

Not being able to work legally is not a problem... the whole reason they're here is for work. And they don't pay income tax.

Most of them don't want to leave the country once they're here, at least until they have enough money.

So really, there's no incentive to for them to become legal, no matter how confusing or unfair the process is.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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So really, there's no incentive to for them to become legal, no matter how confusing or unfair the process is.


I'm not in favor of the amnesty idea, so don't anyone go into attack mode.

However, I think there is an incentive. The incentive is the chance to live without the fear of deportation hanging over your head. If you were constantly looking over your shoulder, worried that you might be separated from your family, thrown out of work, and sent back to a country that you didn't want to be in in the first place, would you pay some amount of money to avoid the risk of that happening? Maybe. It depends how much fear you have of deportation, what the likelihood is of it happening, and how much it will cost to eliminate the risk.

It's an insurance policy, and people buy (or don't buy, depending on the cost) insurance every day of the week.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
QuirtEvans
May 17 2007, 05:35 PM

However, I think there is an incentive. The incentive is the chance to live without the fear of deportation hanging over your head. If you were constantly looking over your shoulder, worried that you might be separated from your family, thrown out of work, and sent back to a country that you didn't want to be in in the first place, would you pay some amount of money to avoid the risk of that happening? Maybe. It depends how much fear you have of deportation, what the likelihood is of it happening, and how much it will cost to eliminate the risk.


I don't think many illegals are worried about any such thing. For the most part they are treated by the public and private sector as if they are American citizens from the moment they get here.

For the most part--no one checks their immigration papers any more than they would check your or mine. Illegals also usually work through employment services that take care of their false documentation for them when it's needed, so in effect with fake papers--no one actually knows who the illegals are--and since they are working for minimum wage nobody really cares either.

Nobody bothers them.
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Red Rice
HOLY CARP!!!
QuirtEvans
May 17 2007, 01:35 PM
However, I think there is an incentive. The incentive is the chance to live without the fear of deportation hanging over your head. If you were constantly looking over your shoulder, worried that you might be separated from your family, thrown out of work, and sent back to a country that you didn't want to be in in the first place, would you pay some amount of money to avoid the risk of that happening? Maybe. It depends how much fear you have of deportation, what the likelihood is of it happening, and how much it will cost to eliminate the risk.

It's an insurance policy, and people buy (or don't buy, depending on the cost) insurance every day of the week.

The people who care enough about this become legal immigrants. The people who don't, don't.
Civilisation, I vaguely realized then - and subsequent observation has confirmed the view - could not progress that way. It must have a greater guiding principle to survive. To treat it as a carcase off which each man tears as much as he can for himself, is to stand convicted a brute, fit for nothing better than a jungle existence, which is a death-struggle, leading nowhither. I did not believe that was the human destiny, for Man individually was sane and reasonable, only collectively a fool.

I hope the gunner of that Hun two-seater shot him clean, bullet to heart, and that his plane, on fire, fell like a meteor through the sky he loved. Since he had to end, I hope he ended so. But, oh, the waste! The loss!

- Cecil Lewis
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
This country needs to fix it's legal immigration system. It's slower than molasses, and appears, from my personal experience, to be seriously under-funded and/or highly bureaucratic.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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George K
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Finally
Illegals Vote.

Wednesday, May 16, 2007

Hundreds of illegal immigrants have registered to vote in Bexar County in recent years and dozens of them have actually cast ballots, canceling out the votes of U.S. citizens, 1200 WOAI news will report Thursday morning.

Figures obtained by 1200 WOAI news shows 303 illegals successfully registered to vote, and at least 41 cast ballots in various elections.

Bexar County Elections Administrator Jackie Callanan confirmed the figures, but she says a new form of voter registration card, which requires people to swear they are citizens when they register, should help cut the problem, because people who vote illegally can be charged with perjury.

And the county has some sly ways to catch them.

"Maybe they have received a jury summons, the jury wheel relies on registered voters. They send a statement to the jury room that says they are not U.S. citizens and then we get that report immediately," Callanan says.

It's a hot issue in the Texas Legislature, where republicans are pushing a bill that would require voters to show some form of identification before voting.

"Considering that a photo ID is required to buy Sudafed, I can't understand why anyone would argue that the same standard, if not a higher standard, should apply to voting," Lieutenant Governor David Dewhurst said. "Why would any Texan oppose legislation that ensures only U.S. citizens vote in elections?"

While not taking a position on the legislation, Callanan warned that any law that required that people present ID at the polling place might actually discourage people from voting.

"It will be cumbersome to have them presented at the polls," she said. "The lines will be longer. It will require an additional check."

Some Democrats in the Legislature have fought the proposal, saying it would keep the poor and minorities, who generally vote Democratic, away from the polls. A key Democratic Senator and Dewhurst got into an argument on the floor of the Senate over the emotional issue.

Callanan says if an ID law is approved, she hopes a process is in place to allow the Secretary of State, not the individual poll judges at the polling places, to inspect the identification and certify that a voter is fit to vote.

Dewhurst says the legislation has been rewritten to make it as easy as possible for a person to prove their legal citizenship.

"Voters can now present military ID, valid employee ID, citizenship certificate, passport, student ID card, handgun permit, utility bill, bank statement, pay stub, mail from a government entity, marriage license, birth certificate, adoption certificate, pilot's license, hunting license, or even a library card," Dewhurst said. "What's so hard about this?"
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
John D'Oh
May 17 2007, 04:51 PM
This country needs to fix it's legal immigration system. It's slower than molasses, and appears, from my personal experience, to be seriously under-funded and/or highly bureaucratic.

Illegal immigration is much more streamlined and quicker. You can get a green card from Jose down at the parking lot of 7-11 much more quickly than through the Immigration Service. He can also get you an SS card, fake birth certificate and voter registration so you won't need no steenking citizenship.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
May 17 2007, 06:51 PM
This country needs to fix it's legal immigration system. It's slower than molasses, and appears, from my personal experience, to be seriously under-funded and/or highly bureaucratic.

Take a hint, John -- the system is fine, you're just not wanted here.

:P
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AlbertaCrude
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John D'Oh
May 17 2007, 04:51 PM
This country needs to fix it's legal immigration system. It's slower than molasses, and appears, from my personal experience, to be seriously under-funded and/or highly bureaucratic.

John, just move back to Canada.

If necessary we'll put you in up our vacant basement suite. Pets allowed.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
AlbertaCrude
May 18 2007, 01:39 AM
John D'Oh
May 17 2007, 04:51 PM
This country needs to fix it's legal immigration system. It's slower than molasses, and appears, from my personal experience, to be seriously under-funded and/or highly bureaucratic.

John, just move back to Canada.

If necessary we'll put you in up our vacant basement suite. Pets allowed.

The thought had crossed my mind - well, not the bit about the basement. You could probably handle the pets, but the other little monsters would give you pause. Boy sees guitar. Boy plays guitar. Boy eats guitar.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
John D'Oh
May 17 2007, 02:51 PM
This country needs to fix it's legal immigration system. It's slower than molasses, and appears, from my personal experience, to be seriously under-funded and/or highly bureaucratic.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. On top of this, they have bumbling idiots running things, as evidenced by the fact that my wife's immigration packet was completely lost, not once, but TWICE!! :mad2: I went on a letter writing campaign. I wrote everyone letters of outrage: My senators, congressmen, then president Clinton, the head of INS in Washington DC... :veryangry:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Frank_W
May 18 2007, 07:16 AM
John D'Oh
May 17 2007, 02:51 PM
This country needs to fix it's legal immigration system. It's slower than molasses, and appears, from my personal experience, to be seriously under-funded and/or highly bureaucratic.

Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. On top of this, they have bumbling idiots running things, as evidenced by the fact that my wife's immigration packet was completely lost, not once, but TWICE!! :mad2: I went on a letter writing campaign. I wrote everyone letters of outrage: My senators, congressmen, then president Clinton, the head of INS in Washington DC... :veryangry:

According to my immigration lawyer, they've fixed the system since then. Unfortunately, he said that in fixing it they've actually made it worse.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Daniel\
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Fulla-Carp
Red Rice
May 17 2007, 11:05 AM
How is the government going to find them all to fine them, make them pay visa fees, and send them back to their home country according to this plan? It seems like we don't have any idea where or who most of them are. Is this plan just to give the appearance that we're addressing the issue?

The whole thing is ludicrous. How are we going to find 12 million people. I know. They are going to come running at the bureaucrats with $5,000 in hand. They are going to go home and come back in 8 years.
:veryangry: :mad2:

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Daniel\
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Fulla-Carp
TomK
May 17 2007, 12:50 PM
Frank_W
May 17 2007, 02:41 PM
NO! NO! NO!  :veryangry:

:thumb:

Well said, Frank!

Illegal aliens drive the wages down for the lower classes and work dirt cheap to keep the rich richer.

I personally don't knowingly hire illegal aliens, but they keep the general cost of employment in Florida down to minimum wage--without benefits for most service related employees.

TomK finally says something I agree with. :biggrin:

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