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Rev. Jerry Falwell dies; ...found unconscious
Topic Started: May 15 2007, 09:44 AM (2,009 Views)
Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Of course we're living in the end times. They started about two thousand years ago. Now, how long they'll continue until the end of the game is anyone's guess.

As to AIDS being a means of divine punishment, I'm sorry, I don't buy it - at least not the way it's usually put forth. I believe that all disease, illness, pain, and suffering, has come into play in our existence as a result of a fallen creation - so in that sense, we are all paying a price for the fall of creation from its original ideal. God may allow us to suffer from the realities of a fallen creation, for which we all share some blame for.

But it's a terrible mischaracterization of God to think that God directly causes pain or suffering as punishment to anyone, through the use of disease or any other direct means. And I certainly don't believe that God punishes specific individuals with custom-tailored "boutique" diseases as punishment for specific sins, which are supposedly more qrotesque than other sins that must be "bad, but not worthy of their own punitive boutique disease/punishment." I think that's just junk theology.

If AIDS is a specialty disease designed to punish a special class of sinners, then God is a pretty piss-poor creator, considering how many non-gay men, women, and children have died as a result of it.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Televangelism is the only divine punishment I'm convinced of. It demonstrates a truly sophisticated sense of irony on the part of the Creator.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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AlbertaCrude
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Dewey
May 17 2007, 02:09 PM
Of course we're living in the end times. They started about two thousand years ago. Now, how long they'll continue until the end of the game is anyone's guess.


That is nonsensical rubbish Dewey. End times started a nano-second after the Big Bang and probably will continue until either we annihilate ourselves through our own stupidity and superstition or our sun's nuclear furnace can no longer sustain life on this planet.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
On a secular level, your view of end times isn't inconsistent with my comment. But my definition of end times is eschatological and specifically religious, in which case I stand by my beginning point. As far as how it will all end, I disagree on both the suggested means and the lead actor in the play.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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AlbertaCrude
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Dewey
May 17 2007, 02:38 PM
...my definition of end times is eschatological and specifically religious....

That's exactly what I wrote using an adjective and noun in my first sentence.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Well, we're all entitled to believe our own rubbish, AC.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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AlbertaCrude
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Not according to the deceased.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
No, Falwell never forced anyone to convert or be killed.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Whoa, Nellie!

Quote:
 
But it's a terrible mischaracterization of God to think that God directly causes pain or suffering as punishment to anyone, through the use of disease or any other direct means. And I certainly don't believe that God punishes specific individuals with custom-tailored "boutique" diseases as punishment for specific sins, which are supposedly more qrotesque than other sins that must be "bad, but not worthy of their own punitive boutique disease/punishment." I think that's just junk theology.


I know it rains on the just and the unjust, but are you saying that God does not punish bad behavior, either by direct (sending plagues, etc), or indirect (allowing bad things to happen, such as the conquering of a nation)?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Jolly
May 17 2007, 07:07 PM
Whoa, Nellie!

Quote:
 
But it's a terrible mischaracterization of God to think that God directly causes pain or suffering as punishment to anyone, through the use of disease or any other direct means. And I certainly don't believe that God punishes specific individuals with custom-tailored "boutique" diseases as punishment for specific sins, which are supposedly more qrotesque than other sins that must be "bad, but not worthy of their own punitive boutique disease/punishment." I think that's just junk theology.


I know it rains on the just and the unjust, but are you saying that God does not punish bad behavior, either by direct (sending plagues, etc), or indirect (allowing bad things to happen, such as the conquering of a nation)?

Bloody right. Look at who won the American war of so-called independence, for crying out loud. A bunch of foreigners! What a swizz.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
May 17 2007, 06:07 PM
Whoa, Nellie!

Quote:
 
But it's a terrible mischaracterization of God to think that God directly causes pain or suffering as punishment to anyone, through the use of disease or any other direct means. And I certainly don't believe that God punishes specific individuals with custom-tailored "boutique" diseases as punishment for specific sins, which are supposedly more qrotesque than other sins that must be "bad, but not worthy of their own punitive boutique disease/punishment." I think that's just junk theology.


I know it rains on the just and the unjust, but are you saying that God does not punish bad behavior, either by direct (sending plagues, etc), or indirect (allowing bad things to happen, such as the conquering of a nation)?

You're right, I wasn't clear enough. I'll back up & clarify.

I certainly believe that God punishes people. Any God who sends those whom he will to hell is certainly capable of justly punishing people while they're alive. And I believe that God not only is capable of such action, but actually does it, in means both direct and indirect, both toward individuals as well as peoples.

But I do not believe, as in the case of the actual example cited, that God creates a disease to punish a particular group of people, only to have it destroy the lives of other people who have nothing to do with the group in question. I believe that if God wants to punish someone, God is sufficiently skillful that God will punish that person or persons, without "collateral damage."

Neither do I think that when God does directly punish, God doesn't punish people for only one particular sin, but rather, as a response to a larger pattern of sinfulness.

While God can and does punish directly though, I believe that most of the punishment we get is indirect, through God allowing us to suffer the consequences of our own actions and our own predicament of living in a fallen world.

I believe in a God who scriptures say punishes, but of whom the scriptures also say that, as you've pointed out, it rains on the just and unjust, as well as that God's punishment is not a given, tit for tat situation. in other words, we have a God who walks the balance of Psalm 103:

"Bless the Lord, O my soul, and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
Bless the Lord, O my soul, and do not forget all his benefits—
who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases,
who redeems your life from the Pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy,
who satisfies you with good as long as you live so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s.
The Lord works vindication and justice for all who are oppressed.
He made known his ways to Moses, his acts to the people of Israel.
The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.
He will not always accuse, nor will he keep his anger forever.
He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities.
For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him;
as far as the east is from the west, so far he removes our transgressions from us.
As a father has compassion for his children, so the Lord has compassion for those who fear him.
For he knows how we were made; he remembers that we are dust. "

Most importantly, I think that while God does directly punish in specific ways in times and places as God wills, I don't think that we can ever know for sure when something is an act of divine punishment, and when it's something else. I believe that it's actually sinful to waste time trying to pass judgment on when something is, or isn't, an act of God's punishment - that doing so is an example of inappropriate focus in our own life, an illustration that we're paying too much attention to the matter of others' sinfulness, and not enough on our own. Further, it's an example that we're likely trying to make the argument that the other persons' sin is in any meaningful measure greater than our own - an attitude that I flatly disagree with. Because in truth, if God actually were going to continually, directly, temporally, and equally punish people for sin, all any of us would do all day long is dodge lightning bolts aimed at ourselves.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Jack Frost
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AlbertaCrude
May 17 2007, 04:53 PM
Dewey
May 17 2007, 02:38 PM
...my definition of end times is eschatological and specifically religious....

That's exactly what I wrote using an adjective and noun in my first sentence.

AC, this has not a lot to do with the quoted post, except that it brought a chuckle. I have been increasingly aware over the last few months of the depth of your education. Although I may not always agree--increasingly I do--your knowledge of history is really impressive.

How did you get to be so smart?

Seriously, I would like to know. I have this picture of you as a young Jimmy Page wannabe and I have your NOW posts. What happened in between?

Maybe I should start a new thread for this?

jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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AlbertaCrude
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Dewey
 
No, Falwell never forced anyone to convert or be killed.


True enough. Thankfully he was never in position of real poiltical power to accomplish that aspect of his Great Commission.

Good people made damn sure of that.

John D'Oh
 

Bloody right. Look at who won the American war of so-called independence, for crying out loud. A bunch of foreigners! What a swizz.



Indeed, they were radical liberals, republicans the lot of them!

Not quite Jacobins but surely, Dantonists!

Jack Frost
 
Maybe I should start a new thread for this?


No. And I don't care for Jimmy Page's guitar playing at all. I'm more of an Danny Gatton fan.
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Jack Frost
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AlbertaCrude
May 17 2007, 08:51 PM


No. And I don't care for Jimmy Page's guitar playing at all. I'm more of an Danny Gatton fan.

Well I agree completely, and if you haven't found the OTHER John Mayer who plays on TRIO, check him out.

But really, answer my questions!

jf
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Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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AlbertaCrude
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I prefer Derek Trucks.
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Daniel\
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Fulla-Carp
He's so modest.

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Jack Frost
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AlbertaCrude
May 17 2007, 10:27 PM
I prefer Derek Trucks.

Which question was that?

jf, who REALLY likes Derek Trucks too.

AC, have you heard TRIO? Do you have iTunes? No, you are a pirate, aren't you. Well pirate TRIO.

And get back to me.

jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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AlbertaCrude
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Not really, I do not download music. Christ, I don't even own an iPod!
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Jack Frost
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AlbertaCrude
May 17 2007, 10:36 PM
Not really, I do not download music. Christ, I don't even own an iPod!

No, I was remembering the copying all the library cd's--maybe wrong guy.

Anyway, TRIO was the band not the cd--it is called TRY. I would email it to you but I bought it on iTunes and it won't play on your computer.

Seriously, how do you know so much stuff? Just a simple answer here or I WILL have to start a whole thread about it. You are really well educated in this history stuff. Is that from schooling or a lot of reading...or have you just been around for a couple of centuries?

jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
He is an immortal.


There can be only one.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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AlbertaCrude
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Jack Frost
May 17 2007, 08:58 PM
No, I was remembering the copying all the library cd's--maybe wrong guy.


No, that would be me.

Thank you for the offer but please do not email me anything. I immensly dislike PM's and have, in fact, banned most posters from sending any to me.

Most I delete without reading.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
AlbertaCrude
May 17 2007, 08:08 PM
Jack Frost
May 17 2007, 08:58 PM
No, I was remembering the copying all the library cd's--maybe wrong guy.


No, that would be me.

Thank you for the offer but please do not email me anything. I immensly dislike PM's and have, in fact, banned most posters from sending any to me.

Most I delete without reading.

AC, you are more of a grouchy grump than Jose. :o
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Bite me.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
AlbertaCrude
May 17 2007, 08:11 PM
Bite me.

Leave your window open when you go to sleep tonight.

Posted Image
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
Too late Kenny. I am already the one of the unDead (nod and wink to jf)..
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