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Scientology and me
Topic Started: May 13 2007, 05:40 AM (668 Views)
John D'Oh
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MAMIL
BBC Link

(For those who say that all religions are equal, and also a very good example of what makes the BBC great.)

Row over Scientology video
By John Sweeney
BBC News

Scientology church
Scientologists want 'the global obliteration' of psychiatrists
The battleground is YouTube and Scientology's weapon is a clip of me losing it in the "Mind Control" section of a gruesome exhibition.

Scientology has fought many battles to keep its secrets off the web, now they are using it to attack my investigation into them.

Scientology has prepared an attack video, and they have shown the Scientology v Sweeney shouting match to anyone who would watch it.

There is talk of 100,000 copies being released.

Family 'disconnects'

Scientology works. That is the message from celebs like John Travolta and Tom Cruise - who is, some say, keen on recruiting new Hollywood arrivals David and Victoria Beckham to what he calls his religion.

Others back the Church in various ways: Chief Superintendent Kevin Hurley of the City of London police helped open a new £20 million Scientology centre in London, and the authorities in the City of London have granted it cut-price rates.

But start asking questions and you see a different face of Scientology.

While making our BBC Panorama film "Scientology and Me" I have been shouted at, spied on, had my hotel invaded at midnight, denounced as a "bigot" by star Scientologists, brain-washed - that is how it felt to me - in a mock up of a Nazi-style torture chamber and chased round the streets of Los Angeles by sinister strangers.

Back in Britain strangers have called on my neighbours, my mother-in-law's house and someone spied on my wedding and fled the moment he was challenged.

I have met mothers who say they have suffered Scientology "disconnects" - meaning that their children have cut them completely out of their life so that they can spend more time with an organisation which a judge in 1984 characterised as "corrupt, sinister and dangerous".

Psychiatry battle

Scientology has two faces - nice and smiley, and sinister and dark. If you do not believe me, go and see their exhibition in Los Angeles, Psychiatry: Industry of Death. You enter through a door that is a mock-up of a torture chamber.

John Sweeney
John Sweeney spent many weeks investigating Scientology
Scientologists want "the global obliteration" of psychiatrists, who they say were to blame for the rise of Nazi Germany.

To prove their point, they showed me hideous images of people having needles stuffed in their eyeballs, of patients undergoing electric shocks and having their brains operated on.

Sickening, nasty and wholly unconvincing - modern psychiatry, for all its faults, is not Nazi and to press the point in the way that Scientology does devalues the horror of the Holocaust.

I felt as though I was being brain-washed - and that if I did not fight it, they would have taken over my mind.

Ironically or not, it was in the "Mind Control" section of the exhibition that I lost it.

'Exploding tomato'

As often in life, I snapped over something completely different and quite trivial.

Top Scientologist Tommy "Don't mention the word cult" Davis had been goading me all week, and on the seventh day I fell into his elephant trap. He shouted at me and I shouted back, louder.

If you are interested in becoming a TV journalist, it is a fine example of how not to do it. I look like an exploding tomato and shout like a jet engine and every time I see it makes me cringe.

I apologised almost immediately, Tommy carried on as if nothing had happened but meanwhile Scientology had rushed off copies of me losing it to my boss, my boss's boss and my boss's boss's boss, the Director-General of the BBC.

I lost my voice, but not my mind.

This is the context Scientology will not tell you about. I have met too many good people who say Scientology was founded by a liar, L Ron Hubbard; that it attacks its critics without mercy; and the celebrities who endorse it have not the foggiest idea what it is really like.

Take "Rosemary", who is an ordinary mum and lives in England. She had two children and one died. Her surviving daughter was also her best friend. Then her daughter joined Scientology and her mother saw less and less of her.

Almost two years ago she received a "disconnect" - a letter cutting her mother out of her life totally.

Rosemary received no Christmas cards, no birthday cards, no Mother's Day cards.

Rosemary said Scientology was a cult. It was one of the most moving and shocking interviews I have ever done.

Out of the blue, three hours after we left, her daughter came round for the first time in almost two years seeking a reconciliation. The next day she begged her mum not to use the interview. So we won't.

Pay as you go

In Florida I met Mike Henderson, who with his wife Donna Shannon, spent $1m over three decades on Scientology's path to superhuman powers. When the couple left, they were disconnected from 20-odd family members left inside Scientology.

Mike's father - also disconnected - is dying, but five out of his six children will not speak to him because they are still inside Scientology.

After a long day with Mike and Donna we went back to our hotel at midnight, only to find Tommy Davis waiting in the lobby with his own black-clad Scientology cameraman.

He harangued me for talking to the heretics. I told him that Scientology had been spying on the BBC and that was creepy.

In LA, the moment our hire car left the airport we realised we were being followed by two cars.

In our hotel a weird stranger spent every breakfast listening to us. In all, we count 13 strangers - private investigators? - who were following us. Scientology denied sending PIs after the BBC.

Scientology is a pay-as-you-go religion - which is one of the reasons why the Charity Commission in Britain does not class it as a religion.

When you have paid as much as £100,000, you get to Operating Thetan Level Three and learn about "The Incident".

L Ron wrote that 75 million years ago an intergalactic space alien lord called Xenu kidnapped Thetans to earth, dumped them in volcanoes and blew them up with atomic bombs.

Ex-Scientologists have insisted to me that Xenu is part of Scientology. If so, it is a religion that requires its followers not to tell others about its core belief, which is very odd.

Critics say that if we all knew about Xenu, then Scientology could not charge people as much as £100,000 to find out about him.

Despite all the pressure - the letters from lawyers, the letters from MPs, the strangers knocking up my family and neighbours - if people from "disconnected" families tell me that Scientology is a cult, that will be reported.

Scientology And Me, Panorama, Monday, 8.30pm, BBC1.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Operation Clambake - Exposing the secrets of Scientology

Why Are They Dead? (Scientology associated deaths) (And this is just a small handful!)
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
John D'Oh
May 13 2007, 07:40 AM
Scientology is a pay-as-you-go religion - which is one of the reasons why the Charity Commission in Britain does not class it as a religion.

When you have paid as much as £100,000, you get to Operating Thetan Level Three and learn about "The Incident".

L Ron wrote that 75 million years ago an intergalactic space alien lord called Xenu kidnapped Thetans to earth, dumped them in volcanoes and blew them up with atomic bombs.


:wacko:

But good for the British for not recognizing it.
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Germany has banned it outright.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
It's not to hard to scrounge up nasty stuff about other religions too.

So what are we to do?
Make a list and rank them?
Draw a line at religion 1,248.

1,249 and below are bad?

I respect the right of every person to practice any religion.
Crime is crime.
Religion is religion.
Don't confuse them.

I don't think any less of the Catholic faith or Catholics just because gob of priests molested gobs of kids and gobs of higher ups protected the priests and the church instead of the kids.


Religions get to do whatever they want, as long as a crime is not committed.
None of what they do, think or believe makes any sense to me.
But then it is my choice to not join that religion.
That's it.

Discriminating against one religion is a slippery slope.
Do we really want to go there?
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Scientology is NOT a religion. It is a ruthless, murderous cult of the most malignant sort. This is more than just finding out that a pastor of a church is diddling someone else's wife. Honestly.... Google Lisa McPherson. Click on the link I posted above, labeled, "Why Are They Dead, Scientology?" Then come back and use the sliding scale of morality to tell me that, "Gee.... They're not so bad. They're no worse than anyone else!" Bullsh!t. :veryangry:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
The "real" Christians call the Christian Scientists, JWs and Mormons cults too.

Does any "cult" call itself a cult?

I'm-right-you're-wrongitis is rather problematic.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
kenny
May 13 2007, 03:46 PM
It's not to hard to scrounge up nasty stuff about other religions too.

It's not a religion, that was my point. Just because a bunch of charlatans call themselves a religion does not make it so.

This isn't the same as individual Roman Catholic priests molesting children, since it's pretty obvious (to my eyes at least) that the Church of Scientology is organisationally rotten.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
You responded too quickly, Kenny. You obviously haven't clicked on the links, therefore, you are speaking from a completely uninformed standpoint. Too bad, so sad.... I guess the conversation is now at an end. (Unless you actually would like to first understand what you are talking about and purporting to defend...)


All religions are cults, or have cultic aspects. I've said this before. The difference is, is it a benign or a malignant cult? Scientology is virulently malignant. (To the degree that all other malignant cults may be compared to it. Jonestown, the Rajneeshes, etc.)
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
I went to Scientology's website.
On the homepage I clicked on a button for "What is Scientology".

It calls itself a religion.

http://www.scientology.org/en_US/religion/index.html

. . . The religion comprises a body of knowledge extending from certain fundamental truths. Prime among these. . .
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
Posted Image
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Bigotry always seems justified.
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
May 13 2007, 04:05 PM
I'm-right-you're-wrongitis is rather problematic.

Kenny, it's not an issue of questioning their beliefs about Xenu. They can believe what they want, and the article only briefly mentions spiritual beliefs.

It's an issue of:

-- encouraging official alienation from family
-- calling for a global ban on psychology
-- preaching that psychologists caused the Holocaust (is that different from preaching that Jews caused it?)
-- stalking, slander, and murder
-- harassment for communicating with non-scientologists
-- charging £100,000 just to learn about the core belief, and
-- slandering those who publish those core beliefs
Sam
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
pianojerome
May 13 2007, 12:57 PM
kenny
May 13 2007, 04:05 PM
I'm-right-you're-wrongitis is rather problematic.

Kenny, it's not an issue of questioning their beliefs about Xenu. They can believe what they want, and the article only briefly mentions spiritual beliefs.

It's an issue of:

-- encouraging official alienation from family
-- calling for a global ban on psychology
-- preaching that psychologists caused the Holocaust (is that different from preaching that Jews caused it?)
-- stalking, slander, and murder
-- harassment for communicating with non-scientologists
-- charging £100,000 just to learn about the core belief, and
-- slandering those who publish those core beliefs

I have already stated crimes are crimes and should be punished and not protected because they occur within a religion - as the Catholic church has learned.

No matter how much I disagree with all the other stuff it is their right and does not make Scientology not a religion.

I also disagree with lots of stuff from "more accepted" religions.
That does not make them not religions.
(You think Sunday School is not brainwashing?)

There is no bar.
Religions get to do whatever they want.
If you don't like it, don't join it.
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George K
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Finally
L. Ron Hubbard, after some moderate success writing pulp sci-fi novels such as Battlefield Earth was at a cocktail party at which the discussion turned to religion. He said, "Anyone can start a religion, hell, I can start one! After all, that's where the money is!" And thus was born scientology.

That story is mentioned n his autobiography, Over My Shoulder in which publisher Lloyd Arthur Eshbach remembered taking lunch with John Campbell and Ron Hubbard in 1949. Hubbard repeated a statement he had already made to several other people. He said he would like to start a religion, because that was where the money was.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/atack/bs3-5.htm

In Bare Faced Messiah" p.148. Reference given to LA Times, 27 Aug 78. Supposed to have happened in spring 1949.

"Science fiction editor and author Sam Moscowitz tells of the occasion when Hubbard spoke before the Eastern Science Fiction Association in Newark, New Jersey in 1947: `Hubbard spoke ... I don't recall his exact words; but in effect, he told us that writing science fiction for about a penny a word was no way to make a living. If you really want to make a million, he said, the quickest way is to start your own religion.'"

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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
George K
May 13 2007, 01:10 PM
L. Ron Hubbard, after some moderate success writing pulp sci-fi novels such as Battlefield Earth was at a cocktail party at which the discussion turned to religion. He said, "Anyone can start a religion, hell, I can start one! After all, that's where the money is!" And thus was born scientology.

At least he's honest.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
As a sixteen year old child I was brought into a room in Manchester by a guy who looked like a sleazy advertising executive and who worked for the church of Scientology, and asked to fill in a questionnaire about how I felt about myself. Many of the questions were clearly intended to identify teenagers who had emotional and/or family problems. We were told we were doing a 'personality test', and no mention of their religion was made. However, there was an awful lot of stuff about Dianetics on sale in the shop, so it was pretty obvious.

Please don't try and tell me I should award these scumbags the same level of respect I should give to the Roman Catholic Church.

L Ron Hubbard's so-called religion is even worse than his god-awful science fiction, and that's saying something.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
kenny
May 13 2007, 05:09 PM
(You think Sunday School is not brainwashing?)

(You think science class is not brainwashing?)
Sam
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
pianojerome
May 13 2007, 01:41 PM
kenny
May 13 2007, 05:09 PM
(You think Sunday School is not brainwashing?)

(You think science class is not brainwashing?)

No
Science is science.
Religion is religion.

You think math is brainwashing too?

Religion is about things we are not sure of.
Science builds on things we are sure of, or rather to me are sure enough of to reach a critical threshold of agreement.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I went to Sunday School. As far as I can recall, nobody used brainwashing techniques on me. Come to that, nobody asked me for money before they allowed me to know the code to Jesus' magic combination lock either.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
May 13 2007, 01:45 PM
I went to Sunday School. As far as I can recall, nobody used brainwashing techniques on me. Come to that, nobody asked me for money before they allowed me to know the code to Jesus' magic combination lock either.


They're smart; they extend credit. :lol2:
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
If Scientology is such a religion, why were/are they repeatedly investigated by the FBI, Scotland Yard, etc. etc. Why are they altogether BANNED in Germany? Why have they killed so many people? Why were they forced to flee from one of the ports they pulled into, (Spain, I think it was), because the citizenry was hurling rocks at them? I wonder if Lisa McPherson's family feels that it's a legitimate religion? (Oh, that's right: You didn't look, so you don't know, Kenny.) :shrug: :dead:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Frank I've heard all that.
It doesn't change my opinion.

It's a religion.

What, You think religions are only good?
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
kenny
May 13 2007, 05:12 PM
Frank I've heard all that.
It doesn't change my opinion.

It's a religion.

What, You think religions are only good?

You're just not listening, Kenny. I've said it enough times, already. I consider all religions to be cults. The real question is whether it is benign or malignant. Scientology is one of the most, if not THE most, malignant cult of them all, on par with Jonestown, OM Shinrikyo, the Rajneeshes, etc. Funny how Scientologists would agree with your insistence that it is a legitimate religion, while former members, Scotland Yard, and the FBI hold a very different opinion. :shrug: Guess who has more credibility? (Clue: It's not the Scientologists.)
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
Frank_W
May 13 2007, 08:29 PM
If Scientology is such a religion, why were/are they repeatedly investigated by the FBI, Scotland Yard, etc. etc. Why are they altogether BANNED in Germany? Why have they killed so many people? Why were they forced to flee from one of the ports they pulled into, (Spain, I think it was), because the citizenry was hurling rocks at them? I wonder if Lisa McPherson's family feels that it's a legitimate religion? (Oh, that's right: You didn't look, so  you don't know, Kenny.)  :shrug:  :dead:

I don't know enough about scientology to pass judgment (my previous post was just a sort of clarification of what I thought the article was about)...

But your post pretty well describes Jews throughout the ages... investigated by the police... banned in Germany... accused of conspiracy and murder... forced to flee Spain because people were attacking them... not accepted as a legitimate religion...

True, today in many parts of the world, Jews are relatively well off. It hasn't always been that way. Scientology might be a bad cult, or maybe not -- but I'd hate to pass judgment if all I've got are a couple articles, and one by a particularly famous anti-scientologist.

Maybe scientology/ists are really as bad as they are made out to be - or worse. But I can't make that call.
Sam
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