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| Hmmmmm.....; More on Obama | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 26 2007, 04:33 AM (540 Views) | |
| Jack Frost | Apr 26 2007, 04:33 AM Post #1 |
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Bull-Carp
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April 26, 2007 Op-Ed Columnist NY Times Obama, Gospel and Verse By DAVID BROOKS Sometimes you take a shot. Yesterday evening I was interviewing Barack Obama and we were talking about effective foreign aid programs in Africa. His voice was measured and fatigued, and he was taking those little pauses candidates take when they’re afraid of saying something that might hurt them later on. Out of the blue I asked, “Have you ever read Reinhold Niebuhr?” Obama’s tone changed. “I love him. He’s one of my favorite philosophers.” So I asked, What do you take away from him? “I take away,” Obama answered in a rush of words, “the compelling idea that there’s serious evil in the world, and hardship and pain. And we should be humble and modest in our belief we can eliminate those things. But we shouldn’t use that as an excuse for cynicism and inaction. I take away ... the sense we have to make these efforts knowing they are hard, and not swinging from naďve idealism to bitter realism.” My first impression was that for a guy who’s spent the last few months fund-raising, and who was walking off the Senate floor as he spoke, that’s a pretty good off-the-cuff summary of Niebuhr’s “The Irony of American History.” My second impression is that his campaign is an attempt to thread the Niebuhrian needle, and it’s really interesting to watch. On the one hand, Obama hates, as Niebuhr certainly would have, the grand Bushian rhetoric about ridding the world of evil and tyranny and transforming the Middle East. But he also dislikes liberal muddle-headedness on power politics. In “The Audacity of Hope,” he says liberal objectives like withdrawing from Iraq, stopping AIDS and working more closely with our allies may be laudable, “but they hardly constitute a coherent national security policy.” In Chicago this week, Obama argued against the current tides of Democratic opinion. There’s been a sharp rise in isolationism among Democrats, according to a recent Pew survey, so Obama argued for global engagement. Fewer Democrats believe in peace through military strength, so Obama argued for increasing the size of the military. In other words, when Obama is confronted by what he sees as arrogant unilateral action, he argues for humility. When he is confronted by what he sees as dovish passivity, he argues for the hardheaded promotion of democracy in the spirit of John F. Kennedy. The question is, aside from rejecting the extremes, has Obama thought through a practical foreign policy doctrine of his own — a way to apply his Niebuhrian instincts? That question is hard to answer because he loves to have conversations about conversations. You have to ask him every question twice, the first time to allow him to talk about how he would talk about the subject, and the second time so you can pin him down to the practical issues at hand. If you ask him about the Middle East peace process, he will wax rhapsodic about the need to get energetically engaged. He’ll talk about the shared interests all have in democracy and prosperity. But then when you ask him concretely if the U.S. should sit down and talk with Hamas, he says no. “There’s no point in sitting down so long as Hamas says Israel doesn’t have the right to exist.” When you ask about ways to prevent Iran from developing nuclear weapons, he talks grandly about marshaling a global alliance. But when you ask specifically if an Iranian bomb would be deterrable, he’s says yes: “I think Iran is like North Korea. They see nuclear arms in defensive terms, as a way to prevent regime change.” In other words, he has a tendency to go big and offer himself up as Bromide Obama, filled with grand but usually evasive eloquence about bringing people together and showing respect. Then, in a blink, he can go small and concrete, and sound more like a community organizer than George F. Kennan. Finally, more than any other major candidate, he has a tendency to see the world in post-national terms. Whereas President Bush sees the war against radical Islam as the organizing conflict of our time, Obama sees radical extremism as one problem on a checklist of many others: global poverty, nuclear proliferation, global warming. When I asked him to articulate the central doctrine of his foreign policy, he said, “The single objective of keeping America safe is best served when people in other nations are secure and feel invested.” That’s either profound or vacuous, depending on your point of view. jf |
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| TomK | Apr 26 2007, 04:44 AM Post #2 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Well, I'm for Obama. I think Hillary could win in the general election, but Obama doesn't have a prayer--so it would be great if Obama knocked her out in the primaries. Run Obama, Run...You can wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin!
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| Mikhailoh | Apr 26 2007, 04:46 AM Post #3 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Ok - we see the goals, and I cannot disagree with him there. But the question remains how do we get there - specifically. He's a bright guy. I do believe that one day he would be a fine candidate. But I seriously doubt that he is powerful or experienced enough at this point to put together the highly qualified team it will take to turn his vision into reality. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Dewey | Apr 26 2007, 04:57 AM Post #4 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I took two things away from this story:
In this sentence, I see a lot of the problem. I don't think that George Bush has ever said that he is trying to rid the world of evil and tyranny, yet that's the lens that many of his opponents see him through. They think that he's fighting some ridiculous, impossible, naive (literal) crusade. To the contrary, I think he's actually made clear his belief that evil and tyranny will always exist, but that it's his responsibility to do what he can - what we can - to minimize its detrimental effect on us as a nation. That's not rhetorical and it's not impossible, but laudable. It's also pretty consistent with what Niebuhr would say. But Bush's opponents will continue to bash him, and actually serve to subvert his noble (and achievable) actual goal, by mischaracterizing his position as this writer has. Second, I don't see the concept of attempting to have a positive transformative (while not perfect)effect on a problem as something to be sneered at. The writer even goes on to make this point; apparently when Obama or others want to work toward transformation (even imperfect transformation), it's noble; when Bush does it, it's naive and wrongheaded. This is literary whiplash.
Contrary to the midset of the writer, I don't see this as a good thing at all. Recognizing the realities of the global community does not negate the need to maintain and protect the individual nation first, and I don't want to elect a President who sees his or her duties in any other light. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Jack Frost | Apr 26 2007, 05:25 AM Post #5 |
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Bull-Carp
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I will not argue that he is experienced, although I am not sure that matters as much as we think. On the other hand, W had very little experience and he has been a disaster. My point in posting the article was to counter Tom's assertions in another thread that Obama was just another "black leader" and a "lightweight." He is clearly wrong on both accounts. I think he is the most interesting presidential politician to come on the scene since McCain first made his intentions known. jf |
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| Jack Frost | Apr 26 2007, 05:30 AM Post #6 |
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Bull-Carp
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Dewey, I think that the point was that the only effective way to protect THIS nation in the long term (which begins today) is to "see the world in post-national terms." This is consistent with my occasional rants over the last few years about how the world is getting smaller and smaller to the point where the old paradigms of defense will simply not work. (Two guys in a small room, one with a car bomb, the other with a nuke. Both pull the trigger. Who wins?) jf |
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| Larry | Apr 26 2007, 05:34 AM Post #7 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Jack, the only disaster in this is the utterly shameful way the democrats have acted throughout this entire thing. Six years ago I thought the democrat party was bad for the country because they were idiots. Today, I think they're bad for the world at large because they are evil. As for Osama, he may be bright, but he doesn't have what it takes to be president. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Mikhailoh | Apr 26 2007, 05:38 AM Post #8 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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There is where we disagree - experience counts in at least two significant ways here. First, over time and experience you learn, your knowledge of the world and how it works becomes much deeper, leading to the ability to make better judgements. Your patience becomes much longer. Secondly, over time your contacts increase, making a candidate more able to put together a competent team around him which is crucial. I disagree that Bush had little experience and that his administration has been a disaster. He had several years with his father as vice president. You learn there, then as White House staff under his father. Following that he served two terms as governor of a state with a gross product second in the nation only to California and a population roughly the same as Iraq. This president inherited the failure of his predecessor to take decisive action against Islamic extremists, resulting in 9/11. I believe the plan of keeping the fight over there rather than here is a good one, albeit one that may be undone by the new Congress, at which point you may start the clock ticking for the next attacks on our soil. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| apple | Apr 26 2007, 05:40 AM Post #9 |
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one of the angels
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the more i think about what we need in a leader, the more i think we need a seasoned veteran of the world stage.. what that means? i'm not sure, but it doesn't point to an idealistic peace child. |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| Dewey | Apr 26 2007, 07:04 AM Post #10 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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And my point is that while it is wise to reimagine the world in different, more "global" (and in other ways, smaller, more "communal" terms), it is not healthy to think of the world in "post-national" terms, which means something very different. In the new globalism, the concept of nation remains immensely important in shaping the "global conversation" and standing up for and defending the interests of some sub-global population or culture. The nation still matters; and it's dangerous to envision the world as "post-national." That is far more utopian and sweeping than anything Bush has proposed, and is far more out of sync with Niebuhr's mindset, which, after all, spurred the whole article. You're right, old paradigms of defense (as well as almost anything else) must be reworked to address new realities, and failing to do so only defeats the stated intent. But in any new paradigm, defense must still matter - not just in words, and frankly, not only via diplomacy or even the implied threat of a large military - particularly if the military, despite its actual capabilities, is rendered impotent by a refusal to ever use it - or to use it only according to rules of engagement established under an older and obsolete paradigm. Arguing for a smarter and larger military force as a tool for either diplomacy or defense becomes a massive and self-delusional waste of time if the new paradigm doesn't ever allow for its actual use. For the record, I think Obama is very smart, and is not the stereotypical black leader. If the actual choice for President were between Hillary and Obama, I'd choose Obama in half a heartbeat. I think he's smarter than Hillary, and has more of an actual moral/ethical core than she does. Even if I disagree with the details of that core, I respect him for actually having one - or at least, as much of one as any politician, Democrat or Republican, can have. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Larry | Apr 26 2007, 07:18 AM Post #11 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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The idea than *any* American would even consider using the term "post-national" scares the living sh!t out of me. If this kind of thinking is actually beginning to spread through the leftwing of America, we're doomed as a nation. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Jack Frost | Apr 26 2007, 07:52 AM Post #12 |
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Bull-Carp
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Dewey, good explanation of your position. jf |
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| Jolly | Apr 26 2007, 09:46 AM Post #13 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Jack Frost | Apr 26 2007, 10:02 AM Post #14 |
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Bull-Carp
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Of course, that term was not used by Obama, who actually said “The single objective of keeping America safe is best served when people in other nations are secure and feel invested.” jf |
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| Dewey | Apr 26 2007, 10:26 AM Post #15 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Unfortunately, there are some people who will never feel secure or vested through any means - and there will always be people who would engage in aggression or subjugation of others for its own sake, without having been caused by any pre-existing injustice being imposed upon the would-be aggressors. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| TomK | Apr 26 2007, 11:10 AM Post #16 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I stand corrected. I though the only modern Theologians Obama could name were the Reverend Sharpton and the Reverend Jackson. :lol: He's commin' on up!
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| RosemaryTwo | Apr 26 2007, 11:58 AM Post #17 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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My neighbor (running for local political office) thinks Obama is Muslim and that this will come out in the media soon. Do other people think this? |
| "Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua | |
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| Dewey | Apr 26 2007, 12:09 PM Post #18 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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(Edit:) Depending on whose information you believe, Obama may or may not have attended a Muslim madrassa for a portion of his youth. He may or may not have also attended a Catholic school for a portion of his youth. He is currently a member of the United Church of Christ. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| RosemaryTwo | Apr 26 2007, 12:17 PM Post #19 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Dewey -- This man seemed to be saying, "Once a Muslim, always a Muslim." He seemed to think that his Christian thing wasn't convincing. Do you think Americans agree, or will agree? |
| "Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua | |
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| Dewey | Apr 26 2007, 12:21 PM Post #20 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Hmm, if he was a Muslim, and now isn't, will the radical Muslims soon be issuing a fatwa authorizing killing the apostate? In any case, I know some people who would argue that UCC isn't really Christian, anyway... (Just kidding; three of my good friends in the CLP class are UCC'ers) |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| RosemaryTwo | Apr 26 2007, 12:24 PM Post #21 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I wonder if this will become an issue. My neighbor seemed to whisper it to me like it's a conspiracy that he's letting me in on.
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| "Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua | |
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| Mikhailoh | Apr 26 2007, 01:50 PM Post #22 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Rosemary, all that stuff was debunked by Snopes. Go take a look. If he was truly Muslim it would be WELL known by now and he would be done. Dewey, I'm UCC....
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| RosemaryTwo | Apr 26 2007, 01:55 PM Post #23 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Yeah, Mik, that's what I said to my neighbor. He may be a bit paranoid. I'll check it out. |
| "Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua | |
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| Kincaid | Apr 26 2007, 01:55 PM Post #24 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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As long as you're not a Unitarian. |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| TomK | Apr 26 2007, 02:04 PM Post #25 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Or French!
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12:33 AM Jul 11