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Going to Confession; A watershed experience
Topic Started: Apr 14 2007, 07:52 PM (374 Views)
David Burton
Senior Carp
Today I went to confession and had among other matters to discuss with my confessor the fact that I had just gotten into an argument with my boss over man caused global warming – she adamantly believes in it, while I (and my confessor) believe it’s – to use his words “a hoax.” He told me to seek her apology and never get into another argument with her again, say prayers, etc.

There was more to the exchange, but somehow it was a watershed experience for me. I realized the pointlessness of arguing with anyone whose opinions are fixed by whatever evidence or for whatever reason they have become fixed. I reflected back on so many instances of it on this and other forums. Nobody’s mind has ever been changed once they have made their mind up on any subject whether it be from music to politics to science to religion to health. It doesn’t matter.

Am I throwing in the towel? Maybe and sort of I am. I do like the opportunity to tell someone, even if it be an audience of people I am less likely to meet in person, how I honestly feel about this or that – even when a certain propriety (cowardice) prevents me from telling the whole truth. It helps me “get it off my chest.” But maybe whatever it is shouldn’t ever have gotten on my chest to begin with. I’m wondering about quite a few things lately such as:

What does it mean to be smart anyway?
What does it matter to spend so much time chasing more and more of this world’s goods and services when you will only have to lose them eventually anyway?
What makes someone “attractive” and what makes them “repellent” and what is the specific message for me in this?
What is the value of paying someone to teach you if you can’t use what you learn – or forget it after passing the test?
What is the value of knowing anything if you have no one to share it with?
What are the fundamental and enduring values of human life?

These are not the same kinds of questions posed on another thread about why certain things and experiences are reserved for “adults” and not allowed for children, etc. They are not obvious as far as I can tell. Each one of these questions leads in a myriad of directions, a huge jumble of possible conversations. If anyone wants to veer off in any of these directions, please start a thread so we can get beyond the usual pointless arguments.

Peace.
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
In real life, true "changing of mind" is rare, "making compromises" happens more often.

Peace.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
What "sin" was there to confess? Disagreement is not a sin, anger is not necessarily a sin, perhaps if you hated or despised the other person for their view that would be sinful...

BTW, I am not really "asking", since the seal of confession (assuming the Catholic sacrament) is binding on both parties. Even the penitent is not at liberty to discuss what was discussed

Say an Ave for me, please.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
I reflected back on so many instances of it on this and other forums. Nobody’s mind has ever been changed once they have made their mind up on any subject whether it be from music to politics to science to religion to health. It doesn’t matter.


our arguments here r not meant to convince. they r meant to be a market place of ideas.

when u stroll in an open market, u dont buy everything u see, but u enjoy the sights and smells and wonders of all the variety.

i love hearing different viewpoints, even if i can predict who takes what stand. and i have gained a great deal of knowledge thanks to the smarties here. and the place certainly forces me to research before i post something, not just based on knee jerk reactions, otherwise i look the fool.

the forum is not about changing people's minds.

its about interacting with intelligent people with alot to say.

so i beg to differ. the forum does matter. very much so.

"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
I agree with bach.

I'm not here to necessarily change anyone's mind about anything. People can and do change their minds about things from time to time, but it's awfully rare.

And I'm definitely not here to argue, about anything.

I'm here to share ideas, and to listen to other people's ideas. And that, I think, is a very good thing.

Pick the towel back up off the mat, David. And I'd be happy to contribute to a thread to discuss any of the questions you listed.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
questions posted by David Burton
Axtremus' answers in bold


[1] What does it mean to be smart anyway?

It means you think and act like I do.

[2] What does it matter to spend so much time chasing more and more of this world’s goods and services when you will only have to lose them eventually anyway?

It matters that you get to be secure in knowing that your cache of worldly resources will not run out before you depart from this world. The more you have accumulated, the more you get to consume with less worry. If you have dependents and loved ones whom you believe will out live you, then you would also be accumulating worldly resources for the security of your dependents out of love and concern for your loved ones. That's why it matters, a lot.

[3] What makes someone “attractive” and what makes them “repellent” and what is the specific message for me in this?

Many things make someone "attractive" to someone else. Psychologically, Freud's framework suggests that qualities similar to your care givers attract you (e.g., you like women who share some of your mom's qualities, you like men who share some of your dad's qualities). Physically, biochemists suggest that pheramones might have a lot to do with physical attraction. There's also the very popular (and possibly quite practical) notion of "compatibility" that you can read up on http://www.eharmony.com/singles/servlet/about/dimensions . I can also point you to The Ladder Theory for a different perspective. I don't think there's any "specific message" for you that can be derived from analyzing what you find attractive or repellent. If you try, it'd be like trying to take a personality test to get yourself pigeon holed into a particular class of personality taxonomy. I don't think it'll tell you more about you than what you've already know about yourself.

[4] What is the value of paying someone to teach you if you can’t use what you learn – or forget it after passing the test?

Passing the test is itself of value because, to allow strangers to evaluate other strangers (think corporate recruiters and interviewers), all you can rely on is documented certification of knowledge/training from a trusted source. You pay some one to "teach" you something, you past the test, you get a diploma, you use that to move on to better things in life. There are things that you learn and NEVER use, not even in tests, not even to satisfy your ego or boost your self esteem, not even for fun and leisure. Those things indeed have no value to you. But the problem is that you have no perfect foreknowlege that you will NEVER ever use in the future something you learn today, so you pay and learn first anyway. Furthermore, I'm sure the money you paid to the instructor must have utility for the instructor. So don't just think of yourself, also think of the instructor you paid, and you'll feel better that chances are better than what you thought before that you're not paying for nothing.

[5] What is the value of knowing anything if you have no one to share it with?

Manipulation of the physical world to extract utility. You don't need to have some one to share to put a value on that. If you're stranded on a small island with no fresh water supply in the middle of the Pacific where there is no one else, and you gain knowledge of a technique (perhaps by way of your own inventiveness) that will allow you to desalinate ocean water using locally available raw material -- even if you never share this knowledge with other human being, there's still value to your knowledge -- the knowledge that practically saves your life.

[6] What are the fundamental and enduring values of human life?

By virtue of being human now, you shall get to enjoy infinite, eternal supply of good beer and great sex in the afterlife.


Peace.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
David Burton
Apr 14 2007, 11:52 PM
I realized the pointlessness of arguing with anyone whose opinions are fixed by whatever evidence or for whatever reason they have become fixed. I reflected back on so many instances of it on this and other forums. Nobody’s mind has ever been changed once they have made their mind up on any subject whether it be from music to politics to science to religion to health. It doesn’t matter.

My opinions on certain things have changed by coming here, not necessarily because I've seen the error of my ways in a flash of blinding light from those brighter than me, but more because I've been forced to think about something I wouldn't normally address.

For me personally, my views on abortion are a lot less clear than they once were, largely due to a lot of thought I've put into the issue following discussions here. I used to belong pretty completely to the 'pro-choice' of things, but I have to admit that I now have serious doubt about the entire issue and I'm still in the process of attempting to decide what I do believe. Whatever it is, it isn't what it was. Although I don't find the topic a happy one, I'm glad that this has happened to me.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jeffrey
Senior Carp
Adults rarely change their minds about fundamental issues. The reason for discussing them (here or elsewhere) is to learn how different people view issues, even if, or particularly if, their viewpoint is very different from one's own.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
People don't often make changes in their fundamental beliefs - but it does happen. I think people change more often than they're aware, and when a change in a person's fundamental beliefs actually does occur, it's the result of a whole series of smaller reevaluations that have occurred, that then permit the larger change.

I think what we're after here is not necessarily "change," but rather, "wisdom" (and no small measure of friendship); and whether wisdom is gained with or without change, it will never occur without in depth conversation, from differing viewpoints, and in a (relatively) non-threatening environment.

You pinheads.

^_^
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Copper
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Shortstop
David Burton
Apr 14 2007, 10:52 PM
Nobody’s mind has ever been changed once they have made their mind up on any subject whether it be from music to politics to science to religion to health. It doesn’t matter.



Somehow that has to depend on your point of view and your idea of what makes up a "made up mind".

There is at least the intention to change by the penitent who says:

“I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life. “

The Confederate soldier was peculiar in that he was ever ready to fight, but never ready to submit to the routine duty and discipline of the camp or the march. The soldiers were determined to be soldiers after their own notions, and do their duty, for the love of it, as they thought best. Carlton McCarthy
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David Burton
Senior Carp
Copper
Apr 15 2007, 06:04 PM
There is at least the intention to change by the penitent who says:

“I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace to confess my sins, to do penance and to amend my life. “

Yes, but that’s not really what I meant. I meant picking an argument with someone whose mind is made up about something just as certainly as mine is made up about something and our opinions are at least different if not irreconcilable.

Given this, it might be worth asking some of those we tend not to agree with how it was that they came to be who they are? I was at one time quite fond of a certain kind of existential psychology wherein a person could be known by certain experiences they had endured or even suffered early in their lives which became “authenticating” almost in the sense of a fingerprint, that is when we speak of someone being “scarred” by their experiences we really mean that it was something that affected them so deeply that their wound never fully healed.

Examples may be too numerous to mention, but take this latest thing with Paul Wolfowitz and his girlfriend. What experiences made him behave this way that came from experiences he endured when he was a child maybe even before he could talk?

Yes this sounds like a depth psychology question or maybe something a psychoanalyst would try and answer, but my asking it has far broader implications since I’m not at all certain that Freud’s system was accurate or even helpful in the long run, nor any other psychological “system.” Rather I am asking what specific experiences and our individual reactions to them mark us as individuals and predispose us to like or dislike, support or want to overthrow, etc. certain ideas, people, places or things?

A penitent is in agreement with the worth of repentance and even acknowledges that the sins are really sins, whereas there are those who can and do oppose the idea that sin ever exists. (IT will be on the sidelines reminding me that to repent means precisely to change one's mind, to turn around, but the decision is still one made in agreement with something and I doubt many sinners have ever come to repentence because they were argued into it)
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jodi
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Fulla-Carp
Dewey
Apr 15 2007, 05:50 PM

You pinheads.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
:) Jodi
my artlog ~ todayatmydesk.weebly.com
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
I agree with Ax, and with Bach and Dewey as well.

I am one of the more hard-headed people around here, but I know I've adjusted (not entirely changed, but definitely adjusted) my views on a variety of subjects great and small, based on the discussions in this forum.

Rock on.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Maybe a big part of the value of these conversations is that it helps us to hear the inner thoughts of another person who disagrees with us - sometimes strongly - and then, in another thread, getting to realize something else, very good and, for lack of a better term (because this is a pretty good one), lovable, about them. It helps us to learn the humanity of our opponents.

It makes it much harder to fall back into your older, preset pattern of stereotyping and "dehumanizing" of people who you disagree with. I think that in itself can be a very big change.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
QuirtEvans
Apr 16 2007, 06:57 AM
I agree with Ax, and with Bach and Dewey as well.

I am one of the more hard-headed people around here, but I know I've adjusted (not entirely changed, but definitely adjusted) my views on a variety of subjects great and small, based on the discussions in this forum.

Rock on.

Me, too.

I learn a lot--and though no one conversation has changed my mind on anything, my perspectives on things have broadened considerably. (Believe it or not! :biggrin: )

Great post as usual, David.
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