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| knowledge and mutual exclusion | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 10 2007, 12:37 AM (1,209 Views) | |
| Horace | Apr 10 2007, 12:37 AM Post #1 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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For the religious among you who have 100% indisputable knowledge of your God, I tend to infer that you also believe that nobody outside of your faith has ever had your level of knowledge of their God. In other words, no Muslim Knows or has ever Known to the same degree that you Know. Is this a fair inference? If not, why not? Thanks! |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
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| Dewey | Apr 10 2007, 03:17 AM Post #2 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I don't think you're going to find anyone who meets your criterion of having "100% indisputable knowledge of your God." |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Mikhailoh | Apr 10 2007, 04:53 AM Post #3 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Oddly enough, I think I can address what Horace is saying. Some one here will recall me describing faith as always having been a struggle in my life. I was raised an atheist, but had my doubts about being so very certain about much of anything. So I went to church with friends, investigated on my own, etc. It was off and on, but throughout I always had the feeling there was more to all this than bio/electro chemical reactions. It is not so much the existence of God, such as you want to describe him/it, I struggle with, but the details I think man has wrapped around it, born again, etc. These have prevented me from fully embracing any given religion. But I have seen in my own life and the life of others the power of God, particularly in prayer. I have had experiences in that respect that I will not share in detail here but lead me to believe there is a higher power, state of being, collective consciousness, what have you. I cannot pretend to really fathom it but I am pretty sure it is there. And although I am sure some will tell me I am headed down the wrong path and will pay for it, well, that is what the Muslims think of the Christians, and the Bhuddists think we're all coming back oover and over because we haven't figured it out. Details men have wrapped around God in order to understand it on their own level or even for their own purposes. I think most folks' faith is somewhere between mine and embracing one or the other branch of religion - but no one - not Billy Graham, not the Ayatollahs or Rabbis, has the 100% faith you speak of. I believe it is, by nature, a struggle for mankind to have faith. There is always mystery in it and no one has 100% indisputable knowledge of God. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Frank_W | Apr 10 2007, 05:41 AM Post #4 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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Good answer, Mik. Echoes of my own search and struggle....
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| kenny | Apr 10 2007, 05:43 AM Post #5 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I also suspect there may be something beyond us. But that's it. |
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| RosemaryTwo | Apr 10 2007, 06:49 AM Post #6 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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But that's pretty significant. |
| "Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua | |
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| Horace | Apr 10 2007, 07:30 AM Post #7 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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But there are a lot of people here who are very clear that they have no doubt whatsoever. |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
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| Horace | Apr 10 2007, 07:45 AM Post #8 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Thanks for your answer, Mik. Is it true that everybody here acknowledges that there's a chance that the resurrection didn't occur, and that Jesus wasn't divine? Is that the case, everybody? |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
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| Moonbat | Apr 10 2007, 07:47 AM Post #9 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I recognise there's a chance of that. <_< |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Kincaid | Apr 10 2007, 08:27 AM Post #10 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Much like Moonbat would acknowledge that there is a chance the resurrection did occur and that Jesus was divine, I admit the reverse could be true. Briefly, I do not think that every Muslim, Buddist, Wiccan, whatever are consigned to separation from God. I believe that God does instill a longing, or calls out, to each individual at some point or points in their lives. How a person responds to that is what will determine their place in eternity. By their works you will know them. |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Apr 10 2007, 08:28 AM Post #11 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Now see, Moonbat? Didn't it feel good to admit you aren't sure? :lol: |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| apple | Apr 10 2007, 09:31 AM Post #12 |
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one of the angels
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i think the spiritual realm is perceived in different ways.. according to one's background, culture, etc. Man articulates with words he knows. nothing wrong with that. |
| it behooves me to behold | |
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| Moonbat | Apr 10 2007, 09:36 AM Post #13 |
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Pisa-Carp
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My entire philosophy, everything about the way i think about everything is built around the idea we can never have absolute certainity. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| pianojerome | Apr 10 2007, 09:38 AM Post #14 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Are you certain about that? |
| Sam | |
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| bachophile | Apr 10 2007, 10:08 AM Post #15 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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ironic and funny that i feel the exact same way. then u would agree that hard wired into the very fabric of existence is something which can never be truly known? or do u think that given enough time and reasoning, all could be validly explained with some uber mega unified field theory? |
| "I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen | |
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| Frank_W | Apr 10 2007, 11:02 AM Post #16 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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I personally think that Jesus was no more divine than any of us, but that he attained the spiritual level of the Christos; The Annointed One. Jesus told his disciples, "Greater things and more shall ye do in my name," basically saying that he wasn't anything special, and that the same "miracles" that he performed, were available to anyone else willing to follow/study/apply themselves. Jesus repeatedly called himself, the "Son of Man." He addressed God as his father, but addressed him also as "Our Father." Again, showing that he wasn't the only one with special privileged access to God. As for whether or not Jesus truly was born of a virgin, whether he actually died on the cross or was simply unconscious, and whether or not there were Essene healers standing by in the tomb, and whether or not Jesus actually ascended into Heaven, seems unclear. Especially considering that after the resurrection, he ate and drank with his disciples, and told Thomas to put his fingers into the nail wounds. Were Jesus a spiritual being, resurrected from the dead, it seems to me that eating and drinking and being touched would not be possible, necessary, nor would it be prudent. Just... for the sake of discussion, and to play devil's advocate... |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| Moonbat | Apr 10 2007, 02:11 PM Post #17 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I don't know whether we will be able to explain everything. But your question regarding what can be known requires a very robust definition of what we mean by knowing something. For instance we cannot know the position and the momentum of an electon past a certain accuracy however it would seem that that is because electrons do not have positions and momenta defined beyond a certain accuracy. Does this count as limit to knowledge? Or is our apparent ignorance just a trick of the way we like to think about things? I don't know that either. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| DivaDeb | Apr 10 2007, 03:28 PM Post #18 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I certainly don't have (and have never claimed to have) 100 percent undisputable knowledge of anything (except, perhaps my name, and which three kids are mine). Have I ever said anything that made you think I would make that claim about God, Horace? I am very confidante of the thimble full of stuff that I say that "I know"...like...I know how to sing, and I know how to teach. I'm not just good at it, I know how to do it...specifically enough that I can iterate it to another person, and they can learn to do it as well (given certain pre-existing conditions, such as, they are not hearing impared or vocally injured, and they have a desire to learn). Even so, I am constantly learning more about how to do it, and I am sure that, in this lifetime, I will not reach 100 percent knowledge even of something so trivial as how to make the best use of the human vocal instrument. I would never make a claim at knowing 100 percent of God. He's infinite, I'm not. |
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| Kincaid | Apr 10 2007, 03:48 PM Post #19 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Sometimes I think I'm infinite, but then I just let out my belt to the next notch. |
| Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006. | |
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| Dewey | Apr 10 2007, 03:52 PM Post #20 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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:lol: |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| TomK | Apr 10 2007, 04:16 PM Post #21 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Sure. I have no direct "knowledge" of God. I have faith--and honestly, I don't know why. I always had it--it never was a struggle, never an issue. I never had a miracle, never had an epithany. He was there. For what it's worth--God, as I see him is distinctly Catholic in his approach to humanity. Hey, what do I know? Somehow it works for me. |
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| DivaDeb | Apr 10 2007, 04:33 PM Post #22 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I think there's about the same chance of that as the chance that you're a 4 foot- 2 inch tall, 84 year old woman who can palm a regulation men's basketball and dunk from half court. But yeah...that much. My confidence level is pretty high. |
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| JBryan | Apr 10 2007, 04:56 PM Post #23 |
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I am the grey one
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I am not even certain the sun will rise tomorrow but that is the way I would bet. (Please, no wise ass remarks about how the sun doesn't really "rise". You know what I mean) |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| pianojerome | Apr 10 2007, 05:54 PM Post #24 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Maybe my question came across as sarcastic. I apologize if it did. It's actually a serious question. Are you absolutely certain that there are no absolute certainties? |
| Sam | |
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| Horace | Apr 10 2007, 08:51 PM Post #25 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Not you, Deb, but in the debates here people speak of their belief in terms that leave no room for doubt. But I'm glad to hear that many of you do have some human doubt - I find that concept of belief to be accessible, while doubtless knowledge of something like that is like something from another species, to me. Your response to TomK does serve though to get at my point. Having so little doubt about something which is mutually exclusive with, say, Judaism or Islam, how does that reconcile with the thought that practitioners of other faiths would be equally confident that Jesus wasn't the son of God? I know I'm not saying anything original here, but that's my biggest stumbling block to "faith". If the whole world was united in a sort of organic way to one religion and mythology then who am I to say that there's not something to it? It would be easy to believe then that there is a certain God, connected with a certain mythology, who does call out to everybody the world over. But if I can look around me and realize that deep belief in mutually exclusive mythologies is not exclusive to any one religion, how can I reconcile that? How do believers reconcile that? |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
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