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Is religious fundamentalism a disease of the mind?
Topic Started: Apr 7 2007, 12:38 AM (5,017 Views)
Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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This was not my view. My view was that there was overwhelming and conclusive evidence that a god or gods of any traditional sort did not exist, and that, as Dawkins's book title claimed, belief in such was a form of delusion at this point in time.


And your view is thoroughly preposterous. Not only is there not "overwhelming and conclusive evidence" that God does not exist, there isn't the first *shred* of evidence to that end.

But I can give you one good "overwhelming" bit of evidence that there *is* a God. And that is your rabid determination to prove he doesn't exist. If you really believed that, I mean 100% certain without the slightest bit of doubt, you simply wouldn't feel the need to argue the point.

You run from one mere man to another Jeffrey, looking for someone or something to put your faith in. Right now, you've put it in Dawkins. He's your "god" at the moment. Dawkins is just a man, Jeffrey.

There are no dead atheists, Jeffrey. It's funny - none of the Christians have insisted you believe them, in fact, we've all told you you're free to believe what you want. We are only required to tell you the good news, not persuade you. Yet the atheists on the thread are literally rabid in their attempts to persuade us we're wrong.

That's fear, Jeffrey. Like I said Jeffrey - there are no dead atheists.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Jeffrey
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Larry: I'll make you a deal. Let's keep religion out of public life - stop banning abortion, stop restricting stem cell research, give equal rights to gays, and so forth, and I'll be more quiet about the evils of religion.

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Larry
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I've got a better deal, Jeffrey. Let the people have their freedom to express their religious beliefs without government interference, stop killing babies, send all the leftwingers to school so they can learn that stem cell research isn't being restricted, stop accusing people of refusing gays equal rights every time they come up with another demand that goes beyond the pale, and I'll let you worship the god of the tiny human mind all you want.
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Daniel\
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Larry
Apr 10 2007, 08:56 PM
I've got a better deal, Jeffrey. Let the people have their freedom to express their religious beliefs without government interference, stop killing babies, send all the leftwingers to school so they can learn that stem cell research isn't being restricted, stop accusing people of refusing gays equal rights every time they come up with another demand that goes beyond the pale, and I'll let you worship the god of the tiny human mind all you want.

This is a prime example of why I agree with atheists as often as I do here.

"I'll let you worship" indeed.

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Larry
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"I'll let you worship" indeed.


What are you trying to say, Daniel? Sounds to me like you think people shouldn't have the right to worship as they please.

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jon-nyc
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Cheers
ivorythumper
 

Jon: the non sequitor was in removing a predicate and then expecting a valid syllogism.


No, I was expecting no syllogism since I don't believe dignity is predicated on the existence of God.

But - speaking of sequiturs - if dignity were predicated on God, wouldn't it follow that if God ceased to exist then so would dignity?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Moonbat
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Beyond that semantic difference, I agree with you that your precursor question is extremely important. The only dispute that I have in this regard is that you have presupposed that the answer to the first is indisputedly resolved, and - for the fourth time - you're not in any position to make such a categorical dismissal.


I haven't presupposed the answer at all. I simply pointed out that simply being able to ask question that may well be gramatically valid does not make the question coherent or meaningfull having an answer etc. etc.

Before attempting to answer a question one must first ask whether or not that question is meaningfull.

[The reason i dismiss the creator stuff is the same reason i dismiss the invisible flying monkeys, or the tea pot orbitting the sun or any of an infinite number of description that lack any basis. You appeal to a mystical experience but of course i'm well aware people have such experiences but those experiences don't constitute evidence _in light of what we've discovered regarding the nature of the world and ourselves_. (e.g. our tendency for confirmation bias, our confabulation of memories, our positively skewed pattern recognition, the observation of regions of the brain like the temporal love which can be seen to cause religious like experiences, our inability to rationally analyse ideas that are imprinted onto us when you young, our susceptibility to social acceptability, the tendency for popular opinion to irrationally weigh in on our views etc. etc).
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Moonbat
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But I can give you one good "overwhelming" bit of evidence that there *is* a God. And that is your rabid determination to prove he doesn't exist. If you really believed that, I mean 100% certain without the slightest bit of doubt, you simply wouldn't feel the need to argue the point.


That doesn't work at all.

1) One can argue for something one is sure is right. The reasons for that can be many and varied and depend on the individual doing the arguing. (for example one reason might be because there might be consequences to people believing the thing that the arguer is sure is wrong).

2) Claiming that someone is not 100% certain something is false does not constitute overwhelming evidence for that something being true! In fact it doesn't constitute any evidence at all.

Pause a minute Larry and consider the fact that you argue against left wingers. Does that show that deep down you know they're right? Does that constitute overwhelming evidence that your position is false? Yea didn't think so.

As for afraid. Do you think i'm afraid too Larry?
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
And now this thread really has gone full circle. Good night, Gracie.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Dewey, who is Gracie? :unsure:
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Daniel\
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Fulla-Carp
Moonbat, does that mean we're all going to die and stop existing? How depressing.


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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Axtremus
Apr 11 2007, 08:49 AM
Dewey, who is Gracie? :unsure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burns_and_Allen
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Moonbat
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Moonbat, does that mean we're all going to die and stop existing? How depressing.


Well yes i suppose it can be a bit depressing - i reckon it takes at least a life time to come to terms with one's death (:)). However, how depressing one finds something should not influence how likely one deems it true.

Further i think it is quite possible to view life in a very positive manner without recourse to religious... myths. Our perspective on things, whether we view glasses as half empty or half full that is up to us. I favour viewing glasses as half full for i think that is the way to lead a satisfying life. So that is what i do - the universe is astonishing and we're part of it. We are part of the real world. We're etched into the fabric of time and space. We are shaped by the past and we shape the future.

To live, to experience, to learn, these things do not lose their sparkle simply by acknowledging our finite existance. Still, it would certainly be nice to live a bit longer (whilst maintaing quality of life) and... we're working on it :D.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Daniel\
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Fulla-Carp
:lol:

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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Moonbat
Apr 11 2007, 10:14 AM
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Moonbat, does that mean we're all going to die and stop existing? How depressing.


Well yes i suppose it can be a bit depressing - ...

You're WRONG!

There is infinite and eternal supply of good beer, delicious chocolates, and great sex in the after life.

So cheer up!
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Larry
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Pause a minute Larry and consider the fact that you argue against left wingers. Does that show that deep down you know they're right? Does that constitute overwhelming evidence that your position is false? Yea didn't think so.


One doesn't have to involve faith when addressing the lunacy of the Left. Proof of it is so abundant that it is a foregone conclusion.

Quote:
 
As for afraid. Do you think i'm afraid too Larry?


I don't think you're mature enough to have even reached the fear part yet.


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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Jeffrey
Apr 10 2007, 09:10 PM
John: "I don't think we can prove a whole lot outside of mathematics."

Does this mean that you do not *know* that if you bang your head against a wall it will hurt? Knowledge of an empirical fact does not require certainty. If it did, we would know nothing: not whether chairs would hold us up if we sat in them, not that our friends liked us, not that we need oxygen to breath or that touching a hot stove will cause pain to a normal person.

There are people who can bang their head against a wall and not feel a thing.

Choose another example.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Moonbat
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I don't think you're mature enough to have even reached the fear part yet.


Hilarious - thank you i needed a good laugh.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Apr 11 2007, 10:40 AM
Jeffrey
Apr 10 2007, 09:10 PM
John: "I don't think we can prove a whole lot outside of mathematics."

Does this mean that you do not *know* that if you bang your head against a wall it will hurt?  Knowledge of an empirical fact does not require certainty.  If it did, we would know nothing: not whether chairs would hold us up if we sat in them, not that our friends liked us, not that we need oxygen to breath or that touching a hot stove will cause pain to a normal person.

There are people who can bang their head against a wall and not feel a thing.

Choose another example.

Ooo... ooo... let me try:

Does that mean that you won't *know* that the Liberal Left all have mental disease after argueing with a few of them?

Just ask Larry!

(Then we can ask Dewey whether he thinks Larry has been "rational" in making that determination. ;) )
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Speaking of someone who can bang his head against a wall and not feel anything.... Morning, Ax.......
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Jolly
Apr 11 2007, 10:40 AM
Jeffrey
Apr 10 2007, 09:10 PM
John: "I don't think we can prove a whole lot outside of mathematics."

Does this mean that you do not *know* that if you bang your head against a wall it will hurt?  Knowledge of an empirical fact does not require certainty.  If it did, we would know nothing: not whether chairs would hold us up if we sat in them, not that our friends liked us, not that we need oxygen to breath or that touching a hot stove will cause pain to a normal person.

There are people who can bang their head against a wall and not feel a thing.

Choose another example.

[Old scientific chestnut no. 642]

According to quantum theory there is a small but finite probability that the air molecules in the room can become arranged such that there is a positive pressure under my chair, high enough to throw it up in the air. Now, admittedly, the chances are very slim, however they are not zero. An examination of historical behaviour would incorrectly indicate that this is totally impossible, something which is untrue.

Just because I haven't seen God appear in the last, say, 200 years, doesn't mean he won't pop up unexpectedly. I'm pretty sure he won't, but I'm not going to claim complete certainty on this.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Apr 11 2007, 10:56 AM
Speaking of someone who can bang his head against a wall and not feel anything.... Morning, Ax.......

Larry -- you are WRONG.

My personal experience (which I will not go into detail here) tells me that you are wrong. May be you have not have similar sort of experience yet for yourself, but when you do, you will look back and realize just how ignorant and laughable you have been.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Hey - I'm not the one who would turn a simple discussion about whether or not a 60 watt light bulb was enough light for a desk into a 250 question poll about electricity, right up to and including wanting to do a survey on how much static charge exists at the exact point of contact between the asshole and the paper after a bowel movement.....
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Axtremus
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HOLY CARP!!!
Larry
Apr 11 2007, 11:09 AM
Hey - I'm not the one who would turn a simple discussion about whether or not a 60 watt light bulb was enough light for a desk into a 250 question poll about electricity, right up to and including wanting to do a survey on how much static charge exists at the exact point of contact between the asshole and the paper after a bowel movement.....

Sigh... thread summary:

How many TNCR coffee drinkers does it take to change a light bulb?

  • 42 to ask "is there a light bulb?"
  • 52 to claim that the fact that there is light proves that there is a light bulb
  • 32 to ask whether the light will go away if you take away the light bulb
  • 37 to argue how long has the light bulb been there
  • 19 to remind them that they can never be sure of how old the light bulb is
  • 208 to claim there there is only one true light bulb and there is only one switch to turn it on
  • 18 to suggest that there are other light bulbs and other switches
  • 9 to argue whether whether the existence of particular type of light bulb is any likelier than invisible monkeys hanging from the light bulb socket
  • 21 to ask what the purpose of light is
  • 14 to claim that the question is either invalid or meaningless if there is no light bulb
  • 16 to counter that the question is grammatically correct and hence meaningful
  • 1 to remind you all that after the light goes out is a good time for good beer and great sex
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
After all that the light bulb still hasn't been changed.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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