| Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Saddam and al-Qaeda .... NOT! | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 6 2007, 07:42 AM (811 Views) | |
| QuirtEvans | Apr 15 2007, 10:43 AM Post #26 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
About the same as the dictionary. I'm sure you can look it up. The point is, indirect can mean just about anything. A butterfly flapping its wings in South America has an indirect effect on the weather in North America. The more relevant question is, how remote is the indirect link, and how large is the effect. If, for example, the link is nothing more than that Saddam was a proponent of radical Islam, and that anything that helped radical Islam was beneficial to al Qaeda, that link is rather tenuous, and many, many others can be charged with the same sort of "indirect" cooperation. Cheney is a great believer in the power of the Big Lie. That's why he keeps repeating his mantras. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| Jolly | Apr 15 2007, 10:53 AM Post #27 |
![]()
Geaux Tigers!
|
I guess this means quirt's full of it, and you're not. Simple, really.... |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
![]() |
|
| JBryan | Apr 15 2007, 11:40 AM Post #28 |
![]()
I am the grey one
|
Let's take a look at what you lifted that fragment from:
This sounds a whole lot more noncommittal than "Saddam and al-Qaeda .... NOT!". In fact, what this is proof of is not a goddamn thing. It is full of qualifications and weasel words as well as including, laughably, "post-war debriefs of Saddam Hussein, Tariq Aziz, al-Tikriti and al-Libi". Yeah, that sure confirms it. |
|
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
![]() |
|
| Mikhailoh | Apr 15 2007, 11:48 AM Post #29 |
|
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
|
They were asking the wrong guy.. they needed Baghdad Bob!
|
|
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
![]() |
|
| pianojerome | Apr 15 2007, 12:40 PM Post #30 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
So they didn't cooperate "in all categories." That means they didn't cooperate in any categories at all? How many categories are there? |
| Sam | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Apr 15 2007, 12:48 PM Post #31 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
Why don't you ask the people who wrote the report? More importantly, why don't you detail every single category in which they listed cooperation? Since they said that they didn't cooperate in ALL categories ... and since YOU seem to think that means, by implication, that they cooperated in SOME categories ... why don't you list every single category in which the report says that they cooperated? Go ahead, list every single category in which cooperation was detailed in the report. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| JBryan | Apr 15 2007, 01:05 PM Post #32 |
![]()
I am the grey one
|
Logically, that is the only inference that can be made. Just because they did not deign to detail what categories there was cooperation it does not escape that implication. |
|
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
![]() |
|
| George K | Apr 15 2007, 01:21 PM Post #33 |
|
Finally
|
Because I don't think they read this forum? Welp, lets start with the 1998 fatwa: http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm
So, Iraq was important enough that bin-Laden mentioned it three times in one paragraph. Then, here's what Scheurer said, in 2002:
Then there's those pesky Saddam documents captured by the US: Saddam's Terror Training Camps & Long-Standing Relationship With Ayman al-Zawahiri. A 1992 IIS Document lists Osama bin Laden as an "asset." A 1997 IIS document lists a number of meetings between Iraq, bin Laden and other al Qaeda associates. A 1998 IIS document reveals that a representative of bin Laden visited Baghdad in March 1998 to meet with Saddam's regime. The fact that that report does not mention these facts certainly does not deny their accuracy. In fact, the report has nothing to do with them. The report is an analysis of Feiths. |
|
A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Apr 15 2007, 02:34 PM Post #34 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
All of which says precisely nothing about the DoD report. If there was cooperation in certain categories, and it was possible to detail it, don't you think they would have? Nah, that would have been too easy. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Apr 15 2007, 02:36 PM Post #35 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
I thought the question was absurd. I mean, really, how many categories are there? How can anyone other than the authors of the report know what they meant, and how many categories THEY thought exist? If you don't think the question is absurd, I'm sure you'd be glad to answer the question yourself. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| pianojerome | Apr 15 2007, 02:53 PM Post #36 |
|
HOLY CARP!!!
|
I'm not making any assumptions, because I have no idea. Maybe Saddam had no ties; it's possible. Maybe he had some ties, but not as many as we thought. I don't know. Which is why I ask. edit: I'm never aggresive in these discussions, Quirt, and I never mean to demean you. It would be absolutely foolish for me to be so and do so. So, if I've given you a false impression, my apologies.
|
| Sam | |
![]() |
|
| JBryan | Apr 15 2007, 03:47 PM Post #37 |
![]()
I am the grey one
|
Quirt is doing what he always does when his arguments fall apart. Stitching together a lot of bull**** with a healthy seasoning of vitriol. This has been one of the lamest arguments I have ever seen him put together. The IG's report didn't detail any "categories" of connections between Saddam and Al Qaeda so when it reads "they didn't cooperate in ALL categories" that means precisely "they did not cooperate in any categories". Lame. Certainly, that is what would have been written if that is what was meant. As I said, the statement from the IG's report that he quotes is so full of weasel words that it is hard to tell exactly what it does mean. |
|
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Apr 15 2007, 04:05 PM Post #38 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
Oh, blow it out your a@@, JB. The bottom line is that the DoD report did not show evidence of cooperation between Saddam and al-Qaeda, and all you conservative apologists are tying yourselves in knots trying to explain that away. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| Mikhailoh | Apr 15 2007, 04:14 PM Post #39 |
|
If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
|
One of the hallmarks of this administration has consistently NOT saying things that were apparent to many supporters. This may or may not be the case here, but I would not be surprised. Further claims of Hussein involvement with Sunni terrorists would not help Sunni-Shiite relations in Iraq, and are water under the bridge now anyway. |
|
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
![]() |
|
| JBryan | Apr 15 2007, 04:33 PM Post #40 |
![]()
I am the grey one
|
What title did you give this thread? It occurs to me that the IG's report not showing any evidence of ties between Saddam and Al Qaeda is not something I would need to be concerned with. You have been making the case that this report shows evidence that there were no ties or, at least, that is what is implied by your title. It certainly falls well short of that. The Washington Post was trying to make the same case but had to misrepresent what the report actually said to get there. |
|
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Apr 15 2007, 04:40 PM Post #41 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
Oh, you want evidence to prove a negative? Silly me, I thought you were asking for something unreasonable. After five years, there's still no hard evidence of cooperation between Saddam and al-Qaeda. And Cheney keeps lying and saying there is. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| Larry | Apr 15 2007, 08:45 PM Post #42 |
![]()
Mmmmmmm, pie!
|
Quirt, you've had your ass handed to you. Give it up. |
|
Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
![]() |
|
| Larry | Apr 15 2007, 08:47 PM Post #43 |
![]()
Mmmmmmm, pie!
|
I don't know where you've been the last 5 years, but the hard evidence has been quite plentiful. But you'll never know that if you insist on being so hard headed and partisan. |
|
Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Apr 16 2007, 02:59 AM Post #44 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
Maybe in Larry Lalaland, but not in the real world. Which is why it's impossible to have a useful conversation with you, because everything reverts at the end to Larry Lalaland. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| JBryan | Apr 16 2007, 04:17 AM Post #45 |
![]()
I am the grey one
|
What I expect is for you to make a case for the hyperbolic title you gave this thread. If it requires proving a negative that is a cross you picked up. I didn't hand it to you. Too many people in government, elected and otherwise, have approached this issue like an evidentiary proceeding in a courtroom. What that tells us, among other things, is that there are just too many attorneys in our government. Anyone who takes this approach to foreign policy should not run for national office expecting my vote because this is dangerous. In the field of intelligence gathering we can be certain, to the extent that would be acceptable in any courtroom, of almost nothing. I would expect anyone engaged in making foreign policy to start from the presumption that Saddam and Al Qaeda were cooperating or would cooperate to some extent and gather the intelligence necessary to prove or disprove but plan and operate on that presumption. It is silly to keep trotting out phrases like, "Cooperation has not been established" as though that proves anything, especially when this nation's security hangs in the balance. |
|
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Apr 16 2007, 04:26 AM Post #46 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
No one ever said that there was a need for evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. SOME evidence, however, would be a nice thing. Otherwise, all you're doing is proceeding based on your own preconceptions, and the facts be damned. And, as I keep pointing out and you keep ducking, there is no evidence of any cooperation between Saddam and al-Qaeda cited. You can use as many wiggle words as you like, you can dance on the head of a pin for all I care, but you still can't show any evidence of any cooperation between Saddam and al-Qaeda. Yeah, the report left some wiggle room ... and that, by the way, is where I expect the WH influence was the greatest, in not entirely foreclosing the debate, but in leaving wiggle room. Nevertheless, there's no evidence of cooperation cited there. Proceeding based on zero evidence isn't intelligence. It's faith. Faith may be great within the four walls of a church, but it's a lousy way to conduct foreign policy. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| JBryan | Apr 16 2007, 04:31 AM Post #47 |
![]()
I am the grey one
|
Quirt, READ THE TITLE YOU GAVE THIS THREAD. Make your case or not but do not continue to try and shift the burden of proof onto me. I have seen plenty of evidence for cooperation between the two but it doesn't matter to this thread whether the IG's report cites it or not. You said (and the WP leads us to believe) this report proves there was no connection. It clearly does not. It does not even say that there is no evidence to support it. |
|
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
![]() |
|
| JBryan | Apr 16 2007, 04:35 AM Post #48 |
![]()
I am the grey one
|
Oh, and BTW, if you have any evidence of the WH tinkering with an Inspector General's report I'm sure there are many eager Democrats in Congress who would just love to get their hands on it. |
|
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
![]() |
|
| QuirtEvans | Apr 16 2007, 04:42 AM Post #49 |
|
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
|
No, it just doesn't say that there's any evidence of cooperation, and it doesn't cite any. Keep dancing, Gregory. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
![]() |
|
| JBryan | Apr 16 2007, 04:47 AM Post #50 |
![]()
I am the grey one
|
Yes, this heavily lawyered document does not say there was any evidence of any cooperation but it also does not say there was not. In other words, it says very little and certainly does not say what you came here breathlessly to tell us it said. You have some real stones to tell me I am the one who is dancing. |
|
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic » |










12:45 AM Jul 13