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| First Cellphones, Now Smokes | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 9 2007, 09:21 AM (1,072 Views) | |
| Frank_W | Jan 9 2007, 01:11 PM Post #101 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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You're certainly welcome to your opinion, Quirt. As long as you communicate like a snotty 5-year old though, don't expect me to respond to your prattle. |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jan 9 2007, 01:12 PM Post #102 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Tell a five year-old the consequences of letting them breathe in Daddy's smoke, and let them decide? Or are you saying that the parents have a right to endanger the children? If so, where does that right end? Are they allowed to beat the child with a baseball bat? Why is that bad but breathing smoke in their face is OK? Frank doesn't want to think about these issues ... let's see if you do, Tom. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| John D'Oh | Jan 9 2007, 01:13 PM Post #103 |
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MAMIL
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I was thinking more along the lines of The Sweeney. ![]() Shut it, you slag! For some reason, I suspect this little gem never made it across the pond. Think Starsky and Hutch, except with men. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jan 9 2007, 01:13 PM Post #104 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Honestly, I don't care if you don't want to respond, Frank. You've proven that you don't want to think ... and it's awfully boring having a discussion with someone who doesn't want to think. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Frank_W | Jan 9 2007, 01:15 PM Post #105 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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Again, you are welcome to your opinion. Do you want to graduate to behaving like a complete asshole, or would you like to stop, now? |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| ny1911 | Jan 9 2007, 01:16 PM Post #106 |
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Senior Carp
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I agree. It'll cost you some $$ in insurance and legal fees, but if you don't kill someone, it is unlikley there will be a felony involved. We're not tough on drunk drivers because most Americans are afraid that zero tolerance will cause them to get into trouble - a nuisance. We put smoking bans in place primarily because smokers are second class citizens now, not for the health implications. If 90% of the population smoked, this discussion wouldn't be going on. The same goes for gun control. |
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So live your life and live it well. There's not much left of me to tell. I just got back up each time I fell. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jan 9 2007, 01:17 PM Post #107 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Frank, you're BEHAVING like an infantile jerk who is incapable of having a reasoned discussion. I've got that right, don't I? I'm not insulting you, I'm insulting the BEHAVIOR. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jan 9 2007, 01:18 PM Post #108 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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I think it's different, NY. I think a majority of the public sees smoking as a public nuisance, and they don't see gun ownership that way. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Jan 9 2007, 01:21 PM Post #109 |
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Bull-Carp
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Nuisance drunken smokers should not own guns. |
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| Steve Cohen | Jan 9 2007, 01:21 PM Post #110 |
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Junior Carp
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I have two observations: Frank you seem to be arguing the "principle" of keeping government out of our personal lives. I agree with you in principle. However this debate is not about the principle of governmental intrusion, but about a specific intrusion, i.e. should the government intrude in our lives by making this particular endangerment of children illegal. IMHO, yes. Another issue that I find very important but unmentioned is the cost to society that smoking and 2nd hand smoke causes. Surely a significant number of those afflicted with health issues due to smoking do not have health insurance. MANY are on Medicare. MANY are indigent and receiving medical care paid for by the rest of us. Why should my tax dollars or my healthcare cost be escalated because someone decides to take unnecessary health risks? They are, in fact, forcing me and the rest of the tax/healthcare paying people to pay for their bad judgement. While I don't have the time to research it, I'm willing to bet that smoking and 2nd hand smoke costs our society billions each year. I have a Libetarian streak in me. But in many cases, I go the other way. This is one of them. |
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"I wouldn't mind paying taxes if I knew they were going to a friendly country!" - Dick Gregory Dealer Principal and Industry Consultant Jasons Music Centers - Family Owned Since 1937 - Serving Maryland/DC | |
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| ny1911 | Jan 9 2007, 01:22 PM Post #111 |
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Senior Carp
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In either case, the general attitude is "It doesn't directly affect me either way, so choose the approach that reduces my personal risk regardless of its impact on others". |
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So live your life and live it well. There's not much left of me to tell. I just got back up each time I fell. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jan 9 2007, 01:26 PM Post #112 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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It's interesting, Steve. Although some here wouldn't believe it, whenever you have one of those "tests" that evaluates liberalism versus conservatism on an X/Y axis, I usually come out near the middle, liberal vs. conservative, but with a definite tilt toward libertarianism. It's a question of whose liberty is at issue. In this case, the liberty of smokers versus the liberty of those who wish to be free from smoke, and free from having to pay the costs of smoking. Your argument would point in favor of much higher cigarette taxes, devoted solely to the medical costs associated with cigarettes and secondhand smoke. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Frank_W | Jan 9 2007, 01:26 PM Post #113 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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Should we still be able to keep and arm bears?
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| George K | Jan 9 2007, 01:26 PM Post #114 |
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Finally
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Actually, Steve, smoking is probably good for society - as a whole. These people pay tons of taxes, fund social security and then die before reaping the benefits, or costing too much in terms of healthcare (esp. when compared to some other illnesses). |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| ny1911 | Jan 9 2007, 01:27 PM Post #115 |
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Senior Carp
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This opens the door to the fat tax. And a friend did some work for the government in the 90's and demonstrated that the entilements paid out to nn-smokers, coupled with the typical end-of-life medical expenses we all statistically will incur outweigh the medical issues that smokers incur because they die sooner, especially when offset with tax revenue. The result was" It is not in the government's best interest to get people to stop smoking". |
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So live your life and live it well. There's not much left of me to tell. I just got back up each time I fell. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jan 9 2007, 01:28 PM Post #116 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Do you really think that the majority of the American public is strongly in favor of gun control? If so, why is it that smoking regulation is easier to enact than gun control legislation? Is it just that the NRA is a stronger lobby? |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Frank_W | Jan 9 2007, 01:30 PM Post #117 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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I see your point, Steve. I can agree with what you're saying, too. In fact, I find it much easier to discuss things and come to agreement with you, than with Quirt. *rolling my eyes* Perhaps you're right, and this IS an issue that needs to be legislated. Again, my issue is not with smoking around children, in public, in vehicles, or anything of the sort. That whole thing was Quirt's big cross that he was lugging around and flogging everyone with. My only issue/question is: Where does the government's involvement in every tiny detail of our lives end? Where does the line get drawn and who is responsible, and who has the power, to draw it? This is what the crux of the issue is, for me. |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jan 9 2007, 01:30 PM Post #118 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Interesting. If there's a study on that subject, I'd be interested to read it, if you have a link. Maybe this is the way to save Social Security ... start handing out packs of cigs at every junior high school in America.
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| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Frank_W | Jan 9 2007, 01:31 PM Post #119 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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It's not in insurance companies' best interest, either. That's why most insurance plans won't cover smoking cessation drugs/aids. Strange world we live in..... |
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| ny1911 | Jan 9 2007, 01:31 PM Post #120 |
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Senior Carp
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That and the fact that its a Bill of Rights issue that neither side wants the Supreme Court to argue. |
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So live your life and live it well. There's not much left of me to tell. I just got back up each time I fell. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jan 9 2007, 01:33 PM Post #121 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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That's exactly the right question. But to get the answer, you have to think about what's different between the things that properly belong on one side of the line, and the things that properly belong on the other side of the line. What's the principled basis for the distinction? It has to be more than gut feel. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Jan 9 2007, 01:33 PM Post #122 |
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Bull-Carp
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Not until you've shaken that filthy smoking habit once and for all. |
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| ny1911 | Jan 9 2007, 01:34 PM Post #123 |
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Senior Carp
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No - never got a link to a published study. Just the outcome of a conversation with someone involved with the study. From a legal perspective, wouldn't the gov be potentially liable if this could be demonstrated? |
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So live your life and live it well. There's not much left of me to tell. I just got back up each time I fell. | |
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| Frank_W | Jan 9 2007, 01:34 PM Post #124 |
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Resident Misanthrope
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Heh.... So far, so good. Today, the bear has a wrist rocket and ball bearings. Tomorrow, close air support!! w00t!!!!!!
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Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin." Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!" | |
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| QuirtEvans | Jan 9 2007, 01:38 PM Post #125 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Most likely not. The concept of sovereign immunity would probably apply. You can only sue the government for damages when the government has given you the right to sue it for damages. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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