Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to The New Coffee Room. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 6
First Cellphones, Now Smokes
Topic Started: Jan 9 2007, 09:21 AM (1,075 Views)
LWpianistin
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Frank_W
Jan 9 2007, 01:56 PM
To actually have it LEGISLATED, though!!

More and more of our freedoms are going to be legislated away in the name of safety, in the name of the children, etc. etc.

No one can argue that this bill isn't a good thing, but the legislation of it is what bothers me.

"Land of the free, home of the brave....." Pffffft......

Good. Smoking is bad. It kills. Secondhand smoke is bad. Why make other people, not only little kids, but other people, suffer when they don't even smoke? Cigarettes are gross. I don't like having the smoke blown in my face, or to have it in a small area, like a car.
And how are you today?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
George K
Member Avatar
Finally
Quirt, would you extend that ban to the home of a smoker who's raising kids? Would he have to go out on the deck for a drag?
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
Online Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Frank_W
Member Avatar
Resident Misanthrope
John, that's not even a valid argument. Driving while intoxicated is something that carries a very real risk of flat-out killing, INSTANTLY, passengers, drivers, and people who are hit by the drunken driver. That's like saying, "Why is it illegal to have your very own nuclear bomb?"

Whatever.... Your argument, in this case, is a little asinine, IMO.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
QuirtEvans
Jan 9 2007, 02:36 PM
Here's why I think you two are missing the point: it's not your own life you're risking, it's someone else's.  An innocent child. 

Anyone who calls themselves "pro-life" (and I don't know whether either of the two of you fit that category) would have a very hard time explaining why the life of an unborn should be protected, but the life of a living child should not. 

In any event, if you want to kill yourself with cigarettes, be my guest.  Just don't kill the kid who doesn't have the choice of getting out of the car.

I agree, Quirt. It's a bad thing. but it's not the government's place to legislate every little bad thing people do. Inform people No, No No. But don't LEGISLATE it. We're grown ups--and things like this make is into a nanny society. Our freedoms are more important than our foibles.

FWIW my parents smoked in the house, in the car, all around me (pre and slightly post knowing it was a bad thing,) I'm still living.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
LWpianistin
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Frank_W
Jan 9 2007, 02:24 PM
You and I are on the same sheet of music there, Quirt. I honestly haven't seen people driving around with small kids in the car, puffing on cigarettes, though. I didn't realize it was such a problem that a friggin' LAW had to be enacted over it. :no:

Errr....I see it all the time. It's sick.
And how are you today?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Frank_W
Member Avatar
Resident Misanthrope
George K
Jan 9 2007, 10:39 AM
Quirt, would you extend that ban to the home of a smoker who's raising kids? Would he have to go out on the deck for a drag?

Why not? This is exactly what I did for the entire 20 years that I smoked. :shrug:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
George K
Jan 9 2007, 01:39 PM
Quirt, would you extend that ban to the home of a smoker who's raising kids? Would he have to go out on the deck for a drag?

I'm not sure, George. In a house, at least the kid has a chance to move away from the risk ... to another room, or outside.

In a car, there's nowhere to hide.

I did have a huge fight with my ex-in-laws once ... they were coming to visit us in San Francisco, and my ex refused to tell them that they weren't allowed to smoke in the house. She told me I was welcome to tell them, if I wanted. So I did, and she was furious with me (apparently, she didn't think I'd take her up on it).

They almost, almost cancelled the trip.

And then, a few years later, my ex-father-in-law died of lung cancer.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
LWpianistin
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
George K
Jan 9 2007, 02:39 PM
Quirt, would you extend that ban to the home of a smoker who's raising kids? Would he have to go out on the deck for a drag?

I wouldn't mind.


I think smoking around kids is just gross, and it makes me feel sorry for the kids.
And how are you today?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
LWpianistin
Member Avatar
HOLY CARP!!!
Frank_W
Jan 9 2007, 02:41 PM
George K
Jan 9 2007, 10:39 AM
Quirt, would you extend that ban to the home of a smoker who's raising kids? Would he have to go out on the deck for a drag?

Why not? This is exactly what I did for the entire 20 years that I smoked. :shrug:

:hug: Good for you!
And how are you today?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Frank_W
Member Avatar
Resident Misanthrope
Thanks. My reasoning was exactly, If I want to endanger my own health, that's my own business, but I shouldn't be inflicting my choices on others.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Frank_W
Jan 9 2007, 01:38 PM
Point taken, Quirt. But I have a question: Why is YOUR point the ONLY one that's valid, though? C'mon: That's BULLSH!T! Why must it be LEGISLATED as to whether I get out of my vehicle or not, if I choose to smoke?

You're going to crucify me over this one, but here's why.

It was once said that the moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; and those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the needy and the handicapped.
Hubert H. Humphrey

The job of lawmakers is protect those who are incapable of protecting themselves. Children are incapable of protecting themselves. If parents endanger them, the state steps in to intercede.

Cigarette smoking should be no different.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
Frank_W
Jan 9 2007, 02:41 PM
George K
Jan 9 2007, 10:39 AM
Quirt, would you extend that ban to the home of a smoker who's raising kids? Would he have to go out on the deck for a drag?

Why not? This is exactly what I did for the entire 20 years that I smoked. :shrug:

Fine.

But don't make the what you do or don't do inside your house illegal.

It's nobody's business what you do or don't do at home. Inform people of the dangers and leave it at that.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Frank_W
Jan 9 2007, 01:45 PM
Thanks. My reasoning was exactly, If I want to endanger my own health, that's my own business, but I shouldn't be inflicting my choices on others.

And I agree with this completely. But when you start endangering a child, you aren't just endangering yourself any more. Your child is not an extension of you, to do with as you wish.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ny1911
Member Avatar
Senior Carp
QuirtEvans
Jan 9 2007, 10:42 AM

In a car, there's nowhere to hide.


No, but you can open a window.
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
TomK
Jan 9 2007, 01:49 PM
Frank_W
Jan 9 2007, 02:41 PM
George K
Jan 9 2007, 10:39 AM
Quirt, would you extend that ban to the home of a smoker who's raising kids? Would he have to go out on the deck for a drag?

Why not? This is exactly what I did for the entire 20 years that I smoked. :shrug:

Fine.

But don't make the what you do or don't do inside your house illegal.

It's nobody's business what you do or don't do at home. Inform people of the dangers and leave it at that.

So, if you want to engage in any one of a dozen other activities that endanger your child, inside your own home, that's OK too?

Playing with fireworks?

Using a metal whip to discipline them?

Allowing your own kids to smoke, starting at age 3?
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Frank_W
Member Avatar
Resident Misanthrope
TomK
Jan 9 2007, 10:49 AM
Frank_W
Jan 9 2007, 02:41 PM
George K
Jan 9 2007, 10:39 AM
Quirt, would you extend that ban to the home of a smoker who's raising kids? Would he have to go out on the deck for a drag?

Why not? This is exactly what I did for the entire 20 years that I smoked. :shrug:

Fine.

But don't make the what you do or don't do inside your house illegal.

It's nobody's business what you do or don't do at home. Inform people of the dangers and leave it at that.

BINGO! This is exactly my point.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
ny1911
Jan 9 2007, 01:51 PM
QuirtEvans
Jan 9 2007, 10:42 AM

In a car, there's nowhere to hide. 


No, but you can open a window.

I can tell you, with rock solid certainty, from my own childhood ... it doesn't work.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ny1911
Member Avatar
Senior Carp
You can't eliminate risk.

edit: it depends whose window you open. I learned that in high school with farting passengers.
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
ny1911
Jan 9 2007, 01:53 PM
You can't eliminate risk.

edit: it depends whose window you open. I learned that in high school with farting passengers.

No, but you can mitigate it.

Everyone agrees that some risks should be prohibited. You shouldn't be allowed to play with dynamite in a public park.

Everyone agrees that some risks shouldn't be addressed. A toddler could conceivably drown in a wading pool, but we don't outlaw wading pools.

So making it an issue of principle (WE'RE TURNING INTO A NANNY STATE!!) really is an effort to make the problem a cartoon. It's just that you don't agree with this risk mitigation.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Frank_W
Member Avatar
Resident Misanthrope
In San Diego, and a couple of other cities in the United States, smoking in public is entirely illegal! COMPLETELY illegal!

Nonsmokers and ex-smokers who have been practicing their goosestep march, are all happy about this, because smoking is such a noxious, filthy, and dirty risk to peoples' health. Fine... Fine...

What happens when obesity is outlawed? After all, if your fat ass can't fit into a standard airplane seat and you end up with your clammy, disgusting lard hogging up half of MY seat too, you should have to pay double, or maybe you shouldn't be allowed to fly at all until you get rid of your tank-ass.

What happens when overeating is outlawed? If you're caught overeating, two guys in dark suits and sunglasses are going to haul you behind the restaurant and slug you in the stomach.

What happens when holding hands with your mate or spouse, or any public display of affection is outlawed? Gosh... Isn't it great that we are on our way to becoming just like Iran and Saudi Arabia?

Hooray!!!! :party: :clap: Come on, everyone!! It's party time!! No more personal responsibility! No more worries about anything!! The government is here to take care of you! Isn't it WONDERFUL!!??
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ny1911
Member Avatar
Senior Carp
QuirtEvans
Jan 9 2007, 10:58 AM

Everyone agrees that some risks should be prohibited.

You're right. But this obviously isn't one that everyone agrees on.
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
QuirtEvans
Member Avatar
I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Frank_W
Jan 9 2007, 02:00 PM
In San Diego, and a couple of other cities in the United States, smoking in public is entirely illegal! COMPLETELY illegal!

Nonsmokers and ex-smokers who have been practicing their goosestep march, are all happy about this, because smoking is such a noxious, filthy, and dirty risk to peoples' health. Fine... Fine...

What happens when obesity is outlawed? After all, if your fat ass can't fit into a standard airplane seat and you end up with your clammy, disgusting lard hogging up half of MY seat too, you should have to pay double, or maybe you shouldn't be allowed to fly at all until you get rid of your tank-ass.

What happens when overeating is outlawed? If you're caught overeating, two guys in dark suits and sunglasses are going to haul you behind the restaurant and slug you in the stomach.

What happens when holding hands with your mate or spouse, or any public display of affection is outlawed? Gosh... Isn't it great that we are on our way to becoming just like Iran and Saudi Arabia?

Hooray!!!! :party: :clap: Come on, everyone!! It's party time!! No more personal responsibility! No more worries about anything!! The government is here to take care of you! Isn't it WONDERFUL!!??

As I said, this is attempting to turn a judgment call into a cartoon.

The risks of secondhand smoke are well-documented, I gave them to you above. It's child endangerment, plain and simple. And we don't allow people to endanger children.

As for San Diego ... I don't live in San Diego. Ask OT. :)
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Frank_W
Member Avatar
Resident Misanthrope
You are certainly welcome to your OPINION, Quirt. But don't go foisting it off as fact, as if you expect people to take it as anything more than your opinion, and then waste time debating it with you. *shrug*
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
taiwan_girl
Member Avatar
Fulla-Carp
Interesting back and forth.

I would ask Frank, Quirt, George and others a general question.

Is it more important that the rights of an individual be protected or the rights of society as a whole be protected?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
John D'Oh
Member Avatar
MAMIL
Frank_W
Jan 9 2007, 01:41 PM
John, that's not even a valid argument. Driving while intoxicated is something that carries a very real risk of flat-out killing, INSTANTLY, passengers, drivers, and people who are hit by the drunken driver. That's like saying, "Why is it illegal to have your very own nuclear bomb?"

Whatever.... Your argument, in this case, is a little asinine, IMO.

When DUI laws were tightened up, there was resistance from people who claimed that this was a nanny state mentality, and that there should be less intrusion into people's lives. That is asinine.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · The New Coffee Room · Next Topic »
Add Reply
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
  • 6