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First Cellphones, Now Smokes
Topic Started: Jan 9 2007, 09:21 AM (1,071 Views)
George K
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Finally
Bangor Makes It Illegal to Smoke in Cars

BANGOR, Maine (AP) -- The Bangor City Council approved a measure Monday that prohibits people from smoking in vehicles when children are present.
When the law goes into effect next week, Bangor will become the first municipality in Maine to have such a law. Similar statewide measures have been adopted in Arkansas and Louisiana and are under consideration in several other states.

People who smoke with children present in the confined space of a car or truck might as well be deliberately trying to kill those children, said City Councilor Patricia Blanchette, who is a smoker.

"Let's step up to the plate and lead; our children are worth the fight," she said.

The ordinance, which was approved by a 6-3 vote, applies to any motor vehicles on any public roads within the city. Violators face fines of up to $50.

An amendment that was added Monday to the original proposal makes the violation a primary offense, rather than a secondary offense. That means police can pull over vehicles if they see somebody smoking with anybody under 18 in the vehicle; if it were a secondary offense, police would have to stop the vehicle for some other reason, such as speeding.

Several residents, doctors and representatives from the Bangor Region Chamber of Commerce and the Fusion Bangor development group spoke in favor of the ordinance.

Pediatrician Robert Holmberg said the evidence is "incontrovertible" that exposure to cigarette smoke causes medical disorders in children, including asthma, bronchitis, ear infections and heart disease.

"Children are the most in need of the protection by public policy, because they can't protect themselves," he said.

But the ordinance also had its critics.

Councilor Susan Hawes, who voted against the law, said the police department should devote its energy to more important issues. There's already too much government intervention in people's lives, she said.

Aaron Prill of Bangor told the council that the ordinance was a "feel- good option" that was not intended to protect children but rather to "moralize" against smokers. Most smokers have enough common sense not to smoke around children, he said.
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Jeez... This is stupid and insane. Get the goddamned government out of peoples' personal, everyday lives. :veryangry: Even if I don't smoke, and even though I would never smoke with kids in the car, if I did smoke, this is just crazy...

What's next? Required badges for smokers to wear on their jackets? :no:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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George K
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Finally
Frank_W
Jan 9 2007, 11:25 AM
What's next? Required badges for smokers to wear on their jackets?

Wouldn't be necessary. You can smell 'em coming. :lol2:
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
:spit: TRUE! :lol2: :puke:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Besides, my 9-year old's chainsmoking is really starting to bug me. Hrmph!! :cursing: :whistle: :lol2:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
It constantly amazes me how people who profess to be so concerned about child welfare are so cavalier about it when it comes to secondhand smoke.

If a parent knowingly fed their child a known carcinogen, you'd say that was a criminal act. But when it comes to the evil weed, you turn a blind eye.

Don't think of it as regulating personal behavior. Think of it as protecting the child. Children can't ride in cars without car seats, because it's unsafe. Children are required to wear life vests on watercraft, because it's unsafe. Hell, adults are required to wear seat belts, because it's unsafe.

And secondhand cigarette smoke is just as unsafe. So it's about protecting an innocent child.

It just amazes me how some people are willing to go to extreme lengths, in terms of the law, to protect an innocent child before it's born, but once it's born, their concern for its well-being seems to evaporate.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
Seems like a good thing to me. Less smoke. And nicer smelling cars.
And how are you today?
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George K
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Finally
Interesting (and good) points, Quirt. From what I've read, the data on second-hand smoke are still controversial (though I think the Surgeon General has said that the evidence is there). If true, the double-standard you point out is a point well-taken.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
To actually have it LEGISLATED, though!!

More and more of our freedoms are going to be legislated away in the name of safety, in the name of the children, etc. etc.

No one can argue that this bill isn't a good thing, but the legislation of it is what bothers me.

"Land of the free, home of the brave....." Pffffft......
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
George K
Jan 9 2007, 12:54 PM
Interesting (and good) points, Quirt. From what I've read, the data on second-hand smoke are still controversial (though I think the Surgeon General has said that the evidence is there). If true, the double-standard you point out is a point well-taken.

I believe even El Presidente has appeared in an ad campaign about the dangers of secondhand smoke, George. If I get a second I'll see if I can find the picture.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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George K
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Finally
One Source

Groups of People at Greater Risk
Anyone breathing secondhand smoke may experience runny nose, eye irritation, sneezing, headaches and coughing. There are groups of people who may have more severe problems. Those at risk for severe problems are unborn babies and newborns, children and teens and people with asthma or other respiratory conditions. Keep in mind, however, that everyone exposed to secondhand smoke is at risk.

Pregnancy and Newborns
When women smoke during pregnancy, the unborn baby receives a lower amount of oxygen and a higher amount of carbon monoxide. This increases the risk of miscarriage, premature birth, stillbirth or death in early infancy. Babies exposed to smoke in the womb generally have lower birth weight and shorter length, which increases the risk for many other complications. Pregnant women who stop smoking during their pregnancy decrease the risk of these potential health problems in their babies.

Children and Teens
Countless studies have proven that secondhand smoke affects the health of children. Both the Surgeon General and the EPA strongly urge that no one smoke in the presence of children. Studies show that children exposed to cigarette smoke in the home have more upper respiratory infections and more difficulty recovering from these infections. These children may have more problems with chronic cough and chronic middle-ear infections. Children in households where one or both parents smoke have twice the amount of bronchitis, pneumonia and are hospitalized more frequently before their first birthday than children of non-smoking parents.

A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
I'll vouch for the middle ear infections: The woman that ran our first daycare was a smoker, and every baby and toddler in her care, came home smelling like sickarettes, and many of them (my daughter included) had one ear infection after another.

:veryangry:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Frank_W
Jan 9 2007, 12:56 PM
To actually have it LEGISLATED, though!!

More and more of our freedoms are going to be legislated away in the name of safety, in the name of the children, etc. etc.

No one can argue that this bill isn't a good thing, but the legislation of it is what bothers me.

"Land of the free, home of the brave....." Pffffft......

Nobody complains about drink-driving being illegal anymore. If you can get rid of idiots, then you can get rid of the need for legislation. Don't blame the government, blame the idiots who make the legislation necessary.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
By the way, assuming that the evidence is controversial (and it isn't), the City Council is allowed to make its own judgment about whether there is a health risk. The same was true in early days of air and water pollution legislation, the same is STILL true about marijuana.

As for whether it's controversial:

From the WHO in 2002:

There are new warnings for smokers from a respected agency of the World Health Organization based in Lyons, France. The International Agency for Research on Cancer says second-hand smoke is even deadlier than previously thought.

Twenty-nine experts from around the world spent eight days assessing all the published evidence on smoking and cancer. Dr. Patricia Buffler, an epidemiologist at the University of California at Berkeley, was one of the working group experts.

"What is new is the systematic way the evidence was compiled, reviewed, debated, leading us to a conclusion that was unanimous, that involuntary smoking does cause cancer in the non-smoker," she said.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2002/06/19/smoke020619.html
--------------------

The Surgeon General's Report was issued in 1986 by C. Everett Koop, entitled "The Health Consequences of Involuntary Smoking". Here are two relevant excerpts:

"Based on the current report, the judgment can now be made that exposure to environmental tobacco smoke can cause disease, including lung cancer, in nonsmokers."

"The report also reviews an extensive body of evidence which establishes an increased risk of respiratory illness and reduced lung function in infants and very young children of parents who smoke."

--------------------

Okla State Med Assoc. 2002 Mar;95(3):135-41. Links
Second-hand tobacco smoke in Oklahoma: a preventable cause of morbidity and mortality and means of reducing exposure.Miner RN, Crutcher JM.
Tobacco Use Prevention Service, Oklahoma State Department of Health, USA.

Evidence has mounted in recent years establishing second-hand tobacco smoke exposure as a cause of morbidity and mortality in nonsmokers. The ratio of deaths is approximately one nonsmoker dying from illness caused by second-hand smoke exposure for every eight smokers who die from diseases caused by tobacco use. This is equivalent to about 750 nonsmoker deaths each year in Oklahoma caused by exposure to second-hand smoke. This article reviews the components of second-hand smoke, its health effects, its prevalence in Oklahoma, and the means of protecting children and nonsmoking adults from exposure. Oklahoma physicians are encouraged to advise their patients about the harmful effects of second-hand smoke and to actively support public policies that decrease exposure to second-hand smoke in public places and workplaces.

-------------

"Kids living with parents who smoke in the home have lower than normal levels of the protective HDL cholesterol and narrower-than-normal coronary arteries"

Dr. Robert E Kowalski, The New 8 Week Cholesterol Cure, page 43, paragraph 2.

-------------

And here's an annotated little list, complete with footnotes, of all the dangers of secondhand smoke.

Second-hand smoke is the third leading preventable cause of death in the U.S., killing over 50,000 nonsmokers every year [1].

Second-hand smoke causes lung cancer, other types of cancer, and heart disease in nonsmokers [2].

Children are especially likely to become sick from second-hand smoke. Exposure to second-hand smoke can cause children to develop asthma, bronchitis, pneumonia, other respiratory infections, and ear infections. An estimated 40%-60% of all early childhood cases of asthma, bronchitis, and wheezing are attributable to exposure to second-hand smoke. Exposure to second-hand smoke also increases the risk that infants will die of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS). Finally, children who are exposed to second-hand smoke are more likely to develop leukemia during childhood and to develop lung cancer and heart disease later in life [3].

Food service workers appear to be 50% more likely than the general population to develop lung cancer, largely because many of them are exposed to second-hand smoke on the job. (Siegel, M., Involuntary Smoking in the Restaurant Workplace: A Review of Employee Exposure and Health Effects, JAMA 1993; 270:490-493. A recent national survey of American workers found that food service workers are more likely to be exposed to second-hand smoke on the job than any other occupational group. The survey also found that teen workers were more likely to be exposed to second-hand smoke on the job than any other employee age group [4].

Besides causing disease, second-hand smoke also exacerbates a number of pre-existing health conditions, including some allergies, asthma, bronchitis, other respiratory ailments, and heart disease. In some cases, exposure to second-hand smoke can trigger severe, even life-threatening reactions in individuals who suffer from these conditions [5].

People whose pre-existing medical conditions make them especially sensitive to second-hand smoke are effectively barred from working in or patronizing enclosed public places where smoking is allowed -- or do so only at considerable risk to their health. To give some idea of the numbers affected, the American Lung Association estimates that as of 1997, 89,400 New Mexico residents had chronic bronchitis, 59,277 had adult asthma, and 34,363 had pediatric asthma [6].

Cigarette smoke contains over 4,700 chemicals, over 200 poisons, and over 50 human carcinogens. The poisons in cigarette smoke include carbon monoxide, hydrogen cyanide, and methyl isocyanate. The carcinogens in cigarette smoke include benzo[a]pyrene and NNK, which cause lung cancer; nitrosamines, which cause cancer of the lung, respiratory system, and other organs; aromatic amines, which cause bladder and breast cancer; formaldehyde, which causes nasal cancer; and benzene, which causes leukemia. The carcinogen NNK has been found in nonsmokers who have been exposed to second-hand smoke [7].

Second-hand smoke is the single most important source of indoor air pollution [8].

There are only two ways to eliminate the health risks posed by exposure to second-hand smoke in enclosed public places:

1. make the entire building smokefree, or
2. restrict smoking to a separately enclosed, separately ventilated room that is vented directly to the outside and which nonsmokers are not required to enter.

The health hazard is not removed by establishing a nonsmoking section or installing a more powerful ventilation system [9].

Many workplaces and businesses that recognize their obligation to protect the health of their employees and patrons have voluntarily adopted smokefree policies. In other cases, communities have mandated that workplaces and businesses implement policies that provide effective protection against second-hand smoke.

Sources:

[1] Glantz, S. et al., Passive Smoking and Heart Disease: Epidemiology, Physiology and Biochemistry, Circulation 1991; 83:1-12.

[2] Glantz, S. et al., Passive Smoking and Heart Disease: Epidemiology, Physiology and Biochemistry, Circulation 1991; 83:1-12; G. Howard et al., Cigarette Smoking and Progression of Atherosclerosis: The Atherosclerosis Risk in Communities (ARIC) Study, JAMA 1998; 279:119-124.

[3] U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Respiratory Health Effects of Passive Smoking: Lung Cancer and Other Disorders, 1992; DiFranza, J. and Lew, R.A., Morbidity and Mortality in Children Associated with the Use of Tobacco Products by Other People, Pediatrics 1996; 97:560-568; Aligne, C.A. and Stoddard, J.J., Tobacco and Children: An Economic Evaluation of the Medical Effects of Parental Smoking, Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine 1997; 151:648-653.

[4] Gerlach, K.K., et al., Workplace Smoking Policies in the United States: Results from a National Survey of More than 100,000 Workers, Tobacco Control 1997; 6:199-206.

[5] S.A. Glantz and W.W. Parmley, Passive Smoke and Heart Disease: Mechanisms and Risk, JAMA 1995; 273:1047-1053; M.D. Eisner et al., Environmental Tobacco Smoke and Adult Asthma: The Impact of Changing Exposure Status on Health Outcomes, American Journal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine 1998; 158:170-175.

[6] American Lung Association, Estimated Prevalence and Incidence of Lung Disease, 1997.

[7] D. Hoffman and I. Hoffman, The Changing Cigarette, 1950-1995, Journal of Toxicology and Environmental Health 1997; 50:307-364; U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Surgeon General's Report, 1989, Reducing the Health Consequences of Smoking: 25 Years of Progress, p. 21.

[8] K.H. Ginzel, Hazards Smokers Impose, New Jersey Medicine 1990; 87:311-317.

[9] National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, Environmental Tobacco Smoke in the Workplace: Lung Cancer and Other Health Effects, NIOSH Current Intelligence Bulletin, June 1991, No. 54, p. 13; Environmental Protection Agency, Indoor Air Facts: Environmental Tobacco Smoke, June 1989; U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, Surgeon General's Report, 1986, The Health Consequences of the Involuntary Smoking; J.L. Repace, Risk Management of Passive Smoking at Work and at Home, St. Louis University Public Law Review 1994; XIII 2:763-785; J.L. Repace and A.H. Lowrey, An Indoor Air Quality Standard for Ambient Tobacco Smoke Based on Carcinogenic Risk, New York State Journal of Medicine 1985; 85:381-383.

http://www.cleanlungs.com/education/features/facts.html
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
*shaking my head.....* Screw it... Let's cheer everytime more of our freedoms are legislated away, then. Let's cheer everytime the government interferes in our personal lives. Let's cheer everytime personal responsibility is neglected in favor of enacting more laws. Let's cheer for spiritual bankruptcy and the fact that this is only the start of the government's continued encroachment on our personal lives. It's like boiling a frog slowly: The frog doesn't even realize anything's amiss until it's too late.

WTF-EVER..... :rolleyes2: :no: :veryangry:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Frank_W
Jan 9 2007, 12:56 PM
To actually have it LEGISLATED, though!!

More and more of our freedoms are going to be legislated away in the name of safety, in the name of the children, etc. etc.

No one can argue that this bill isn't a good thing, but the legislation of it is what bothers me.

"Land of the free, home of the brave....." Pffffft......

It's no different than a wide range of other legislation affecting the health of children, Frank.

Now, if you want to say that, as a society, we have gotten ridiculously risk-averse, and we're willing to outlaw practically any behavior that poses even a small risk, I'm with you there. I think that we are waaaaay too risk-averse, and that we've totally disregarded the concepts of cost-benefit analysis, and of individual responsibility. But that's a much broader issue than this particular law, which is well-justified, imho.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Frank_W
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You and I are on the same sheet of music there, Quirt. I honestly haven't seen people driving around with small kids in the car, puffing on cigarettes, though. I didn't realize it was such a problem that a friggin' LAW had to be enacted over it. :no:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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George K
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Finally
Thanks for the references, Quirt. This is one area i really haven't kept current on. I was unaware of the research that you quoted, and I'll try to read some of the abstracts of some of those papers.

A quick scan a scholar.google.com shows a similar list, with links to abstracts.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
Frank_W
Jan 9 2007, 02:18 PM
*shaking my head.....* Screw it... Let's cheer everytime more of our freedoms are legislated away, then. Let's cheer everytime the government interferes in our personal lives. Let's cheer everytime personal responsibility is neglected in favor of enacting more laws. Let's cheer for spiritual bankruptcy and the fact that this is only the start of the government's continued encroachment on our personal lives. It's like boiling a frog slowly: The frog doesn't even realize anything's amiss until it's too late.

WTF-EVER..... :rolleyes2: :no: :veryangry:

Exactly Frank.

I don't smoke--never will. (OK a cigar miles away from any human habitation every once in a while.) I don't like to be around people that do smoke. BUT damn it, smokers should be allowed to do in their own life what they want to do. This homogenization (there's a pun somewhere in that word,) of society is not boding well for our civil rights.
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Frank_W
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Thanks, Tom. That's exactly what I'm trying to say.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
Hey, you can't smoke in front of kids--but you can let them be raised by gay people. I say, if you ban one--you should ban them both. :)
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Here's why I think you two are missing the point: it's not your own life you're risking, it's someone else's. An innocent child.

Anyone who calls themselves "pro-life" (and I don't know whether either of the two of you fit that category) would have a very hard time explaining why the life of an unborn should be protected, but the life of a living child should not.

In any event, if you want to kill yourself with cigarettes, be my guest. Just don't kill the kid who doesn't have the choice of getting out of the car.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
TomK
Jan 9 2007, 01:36 PM
Hey, you can't smoke in front of kids--but you can let them be raised by gay people. I say, if you ban one--you should ban them both. :)

When you can quote a pile of peer-reviewed scientific evidence that being raised by a gay couple is harmful, Tom, be my guest.

Until then, I would say that the evidence for the dangers of gay parenting is far more "controversial" than the evidence of the dangers of secondhand smoke.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Frank_W
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Point taken, Quirt. But I have a question: Why is YOUR point the ONLY one that's valid, though? C'mon: That's BULLSH!T! Why must it be LEGISLATED as to whether I get out of my vehicle or not, if I choose to smoke?
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Does anybody here think that drink-driving should be legalised?

If not, why not?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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