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Interesting headline on Drudge right now.
Topic Started: Jan 6 2007, 04:08 PM (685 Views)
Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
No link to actual story yet...
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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George K
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Finally
Saw that too. Very interesting....
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
Havinng a plan is one thing--I would be shocked if they didn't have a plan--implementing it is another thing.

I certainly hope it doesn't come to that.




http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2535310,00.html



jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
I'd rather Israel take them out than us. THey have much more at stake.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
This is... terrifying. The radiation fallout may not amount to much, but the fallout from every corner of the globe will be horrific. There isn't much that scares me, but this DOES.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Steve Cohen
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Junior Carp
Frank_W
Jan 6 2007, 09:40 PM
This is... terrifying. The radiation fallout may not amount to much, but the fallout from every corner of the globe will be horrific. There isn't much that scares me, but this DOES.

Me too. :!:
"I wouldn't mind paying taxes if I knew they were going to a friendly country!" - Dick Gregory


Dealer Principal and Industry Consultant
Jasons Music Centers - Family Owned
Since 1937 - Serving Maryland/DC
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
jon-nyc
Jan 6 2007, 08:41 PM
I'd rather Israel take them out than us. THey have much more at stake.

The world will consider Israel our proxy. At a minimum, all will know that we knew of and approved the plan in advance.

I wonder if it is necessary?

Iran is a scary place right now, but many other nations that have acquired nukes have become more responsible--somewhat--with the burden. North Korea and (for sharing) Pakistan excepted.

Looking forward, I am less worried about nukes than biologics. The latter would be much harder to detect and take out. I assume that at some point--say 20--30--50 years from now, any old nation will be able to make a nuke and many will have advanced biological weapons if they want them. It is now entirely foreseeable that a biological weapon could be developed to annihilate a race--target, say, some particular Arab gene. The reverse is also true. I have no doubt that there will come a time when this is possible, and like all weapons systems, there will also come a time when it is widespread. If we have any hope of surviving, we need to lay the foundation for a very different kind of world. Starting soon.

The threat of Iran may be real and serious, but taking them out with nukes or even conventional bunker busters is a very short term solution. If we are not prepared to engage in a program of genocide in the Middle East, we better chart a long term course for peace.

Not sure what that is, but nuking Iran is not part of that path. At best, it would buy us a couple of decades. I have an 11 year old daughter and for me, that is not enough.

jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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George K
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Finally
Well writ, Jack. Well writ.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
George K
Jan 6 2007, 10:40 PM
Well writ, Jack. Well writ.

Thank you George.

I am not the brain dead liberal that some here make me out to be.

I try to think long term--the life of my kids--and the issues are very challenging.

jf

Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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CrashTest
Pisa-Carp
There are plans for everything, this is just political hogwash in order to get Iran a bit ruffled up.

Carry a big stick is the case here.
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
CrashTest
Jan 6 2007, 11:45 PM
There are plans for everything, this is just political hogwash in order to get Iran a bit ruffled up.

Carry a big stick is the case here.

And that will work for a week or two....

jf


Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Steve Cohen
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Junior Carp
Jack Frost
Jan 6 2007, 10:36 PM
jon-nyc
Jan 6 2007, 08:41 PM
I'd rather Israel take them out than us.  THey have much more at stake.

The world will consider Israel our proxy. At a minimum, all will know that we knew of and approved the plan in advance.

I wonder if it is necessary?

Iran is a scary place right now, but many other nations that have acquired nukes have become more responsible--somewhat--with the burden. North Korea and (for sharing) Pakistan excepted.

Looking forward, I am less worried about nukes than biologics. The latter would be much harder to detect and take out. I assume that at some point--say 20--30--50 years from now, any old nation will be able to make a nuke and many will have advanced biological weapons if they want them. It is now entirely foreseeable that a biological weapon could be developed to annihilate a race--target, say, some particular Arab gene. The reverse is also true. I have no doubt that there will come a time when this is possible, and like all weapons systems, there will also come a time when it is widespread. If we have any hope of surviving, we need to lay the foundation for a very different kind of world. Starting soon.

The threat of Iran may be real and serious, but taking them out with nukes or even conventional bunker busters is a very short term solution. If we are not prepared to engage in a program of genocide in the Middle East, we better chart a long term course for peace.

Not sure what that is, but nuking Iran is not part of that path. At best, it would buy us a couple of decades. I have an 11 year old daughter and for me, that is not enough.

jf

Great post Jack.

Even if it is from a liberal! :wink:
"I wouldn't mind paying taxes if I knew they were going to a friendly country!" - Dick Gregory


Dealer Principal and Industry Consultant
Jasons Music Centers - Family Owned
Since 1937 - Serving Maryland/DC
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Jack Frost
Jan 6 2007, 06:36 PM
jon-nyc
Jan 6 2007, 08:41 PM
I'd rather Israel take them out than us.  THey have much more at stake.

The world will consider Israel our proxy. At a minimum, all will know that we knew of and approved the plan in advance.

I wonder if it is necessary?

Iran is a scary place right now, but many other nations that have acquired nukes have become more responsible--somewhat--with the burden. North Korea and (for sharing) Pakistan excepted.

Looking forward, I am less worried about nukes than biologics. The latter would be much harder to detect and take out. I assume that at some point--say 20--30--50 years from now, any old nation will be able to make a nuke and many will have advanced biological weapons if they want them. It is now entirely foreseeable that a biological weapon could be developed to annihilate a race--target, say, some particular Arab gene. The reverse is also true. I have no doubt that there will come a time when this is possible, and like all weapons systems, there will also come a time when it is widespread. If we have any hope of surviving, we need to lay the foundation for a very different kind of world. Starting soon.

The threat of Iran may be real and serious, but taking them out with nukes or even conventional bunker busters is a very short term solution. If we are not prepared to engage in a program of genocide in the Middle East, we better chart a long term course for peace.

Not sure what that is, but nuking Iran is not part of that path. At best, it would buy us a couple of decades. I have an 11 year old daughter and for me, that is not enough.

jf

Yep. Nice one, Jack. :clap:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
An Iran armed with nuclear weapons is much more frightening than some here seem to be able to imagine. There is no reason to suspect that a nuclear armed Iran will behave any less recklessly than it does right now. I am not saying a nuclear strike against Iran will be necessary but it may be.

I like to think long term as well and our long term goal should be regime change in Iran facilitated by anything we can do to weaken the current one. Allowing it to acquire nukes is counterproductive not only for that specific goal but for any chance of peace in the region. I don't have children but if I did I would fear for their prospects in a world where Iran, under the current regime, has nuclear weapons.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
I do not share Jack's view....surprise!...... I agree with Jbryan's view. A nuclear Iran is a far worse threat to our children's future than doing something to stop Iran from having nukes. "Letting" Israel defend themselves isn't something we have a right to do - they have a right to defend themselves. What we should do is start loading up our bombers and go over and help them.

It's another one of those times where the touchy feely antiwar surrender monkeys need to sit down and stay out of the way.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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jon-nyc
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Cheers
JB, I agree it is frightening and should be prevented.

I'd still like to see Israel do it, not us. They have more at stake and less to lose for doing it. Also, there is absolutely no question that Iran will retaliate, and I'd prefer the retaliation not be directed at us, especially since getting rid of their weapons will benefit Israel far more than us.

(although i suspect we'd be a direct or indirect target of their retaliation in any event)


The other question raised by some pretty knowledgable analysts is whether we or Israel have enough information to take out their program - or is some chunk of it hidden. Worst of all possible worlds would be to attack them but have it fail.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
Larry
Jan 7 2007, 10:02 AM
"Letting" Israel defend themselves isn't something we have a right to do - they have a right to defend themselves.

"Letting" is exactly the right word.

We're paying for their military, and the one who pays the piper calls the tune.

Maybe we should let them. Maybe we should, as you say, help them load the bombers. But it's too early right now, and if they go ahead (once again) without American support we need to cut them loose an let them fend for themselves.

Wag more
Bark less
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
No, "letting" is *not* the right word. Israel is a soveregn nation, and as such call their own shots. They are the ones being threatened with being eliminated from the face of the earth, and they have a right to decide what they need to do to prevent that. The fact that we give Israel financial assistance has nothing to do with it - and I do not buy your statement that we're "paying for their military". They are an ally of ours, and as such we are obligated to help them. That's the whole point of forming alliances. We also "pay" for several other country's militaries, using your yardstick - but I don't think any of those countries would be all that happy to hear us declare that since we provide them with financial assistance to their military apparatus that we are entitled to make their decisions for them.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
Larry
Jan 7 2007, 10:22 AM
No, "letting" is *not* the right word. Israel is a soveregn nation, and as such call their own shots.

Are you in the habit of supporting causes where they use your money in ways that are not in your best interest?
Wag more
Bark less
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
Are you in the habit of supporting causes where they use your money in ways that are not in your best interest?


Explain to me how removing Iran's ability to build a nuke is not in my best interest.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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apple
one of the angels
Israel's been busy...

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,1331...=topstories.RSS
it behooves me to behold
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
Larry
Jan 7 2007, 11:02 AM
Explain to me how removing Iran's ability to build a nuke is not in my best interest.

It is - but on our timetable, not Israel's.
Wag more
Bark less
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
jon-nyc
Jan 7 2007, 12:09 PM
JB, I agree it is frightening and should be prevented.

I'd still like to see Israel do it, not us. They have more at stake and less to lose for doing it. Also, there is absolutely no question that Iran will retaliate, and I'd prefer the retaliation not be directed at us, especially since getting rid of their weapons will benefit Israel far more than us.

(although i suspect we'd be a direct or indirect target of their retaliation in any event)



I agree.

Quote:
 
The other question raised by some pretty knowledgable analysts is whether we or Israel have enough information to take out their program - or is some chunk of it hidden.  Worst of all possible worlds would be to attack them but have it fail.


This is a real concern and may be why a military option is not even viable.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
JBryan
Jan 7 2007, 01:33 PM
jon-nyc
Jan 7 2007, 12:09 PM
JB, I agree ...


I agree.


Jeez, its only the 7th of January and we've already had our annual agreement. We could end up busting our quota this year.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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pianojerome
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HOLY CARP!!!
Steve Miller
Jan 7 2007, 01:54 PM
Larry
Jan 7 2007, 10:22 AM
No, "letting" is *not* the right word. Israel is a soveregn nation, and as such call their own shots.

Are you in the habit of supporting causes where they use your money in ways that are not in your best interest?

It's not our money any more. It's Israel's money (we gave it to them, remember?)

If we don't like what Israel does, then we will cease to send our support. But unless we say to them as part of the money transaction, "We are giving you this money for this specific purpose and/or don't use it for this", Israel can do whatever they want with it, even if we later don't like how they are using it.
Sam
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