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The Bookies Say Romney in '08
Topic Started: Jan 6 2007, 09:26 AM (475 Views)
Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
George K
Jan 6 2007, 07:24 PM
Having read that book, Jack (and I have not), do you think that Romney's religion would have a serious influence on his ability to govern (should he be elected), and do you think that it has affected his governorship of Massachussetts?

After all, and I'm ignorant on the contents of the book, what you're saying sounds suspiciously like what we heard in 1960 about the White House having to answer to the Pope.

I was a very early Romney fan. Less so now that he is sucking up to the intelligent design and right to life crowd--both representing a complete reversal of his postitions when running for Governor of Massachusetts.

I think he is very smart and if he is not beholden to the fringes of the Republican party, I think he would make an excellent President.

I have a hard time believing that he truly respects and worships a prophet who came up with the notion of polygamy just to justify his marital infidelities. Joseph Smith is not just some fringe nut--he's the guy who established the religion. Dismiss him, I think you have to dismiss the whole thing.

Educate me otherwise please!

jf
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Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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George K
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Finally
Just statistically speaking, even if he had the most benign form of melanoma (stage I), he was diagnosed in 2000. His 5 year survival is 75%. The 10 year survival is about the same. Again, just based on stats, he has a 1/4 chance of not surviving the decade (assuming the best-case scenario).

Look at recent photos of him and tell me that his tumor is under control. Unfortunately, it's not. Next time you see him on TV, pay attention to his left cheek. Look at the assymetry of his face. It's obvious, if you look.
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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CTPianotech
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OperaTenor
Jan 6 2007, 07:15 PM
Jack Frost
Jan 6 2007, 03:20 PM
Posted Image



No doubt a one-sided perspective, but after reading this book I would have a hard time voting for anyone who was a serious Mormon.

jf

Posted Image

This is another good insight on the LDS church.

They're a bit looney.

I must confess, I didn't know Harry Reid was Mormon. That really cuts my estimation of him appreciably, not that I was ever in love with the guy in the first place.

Jack and OT, could you give me a brief run down of the loonyness the books describe?
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George K
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Finally
Jack Frost
Jan 6 2007, 07:04 PM
now that he is sucking up to the intelligent design and right to life crowd--both representing a complete reversal of his postitions when running for Governor of Massachusetts

Posted Image

Interesting, Jack. As I said, I know little about him. You're the one who's educating. Thanks, Jack.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
George K
Jan 6 2007, 08:07 PM
Just statistically speaking, even if he had the most benign form of melanoma (stage I), he was diagnosed in 2000. His 5 year survival is 75%. The 10 year survival is about the same. Again, just based on stats, he has a 1/4 chance of not surviving the decade (assuming the best-case scenario).

Look at recent photos of him and tell me that his tumor is under control. Unfortunately, it's not. Next time you see him on TV, pay attention to his left cheek. Look at the assymetry of his face. It's obvious, if you look.

I recall you saying that before, and I recall Bach telling you that you were wrong.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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jon-nyc
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FWIW, I too recall George and Bach discussing this and coming to the conclusion that it wasn't as bad as George's initial assessment.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Jack Frost
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George K
Jan 6 2007, 09:11 PM


Interesting, Jack. As I said, I know little about him. You're the one who's educating. Thanks, Jack.

Major league flip flop. I would like to think he doesn't mean it, kind of like HW Bush, but his flip has been so dramatic and clear, I fear it is something he would carry into his Presidency. His current positions on "life" issues are a complete sham, but if elected he may feel beholden to those interests so he would have to maintain those positions.

His "cover" is that his pro-choice position evaporated when he was talking with a Harvard scientist who wanted to promote stem cell research. The Romney "line" is that when he realized stem cell research would involve "killing" real embryos, he had a come to Jesus moment and became "pro life" and then some.

It is clearly all spin.

As I said, I was an early supporter and would have loved to have him run as a moderate Republican--highly electable I think--but he has made some significant changes to get the nomination and that leaves me cold....

As governor of Massachusetts, he has been largely a nothing. He was saddled with a very Democratic House and Senate and chose to establish his record for his Presidential run rather than work to accomplish anything in the State.



jf


Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Daniel\
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Fulla-Carp
George K
Jan 6 2007, 04:12 PM
Oh, Lord.

"According to Latter-day Saint theology, the term Mormon also refers to a prophet who lived in the Americas in the 4th century A.D. He was called of God to abridge and compile the records of his people and their dealings with God into a single book. This book is now known as the Book of Mormon. After Mormon's death, his son Moroni witnessed the complete destruction of his people and buried the record compiled by his father in a hill in what is now upstate New York. This same Moroni, more than 1400 years later, was sent by God as a messenger to Smith who went to the place where the record was buried, and with a great deal of help from God, Smith translated the record into English."

Wiki--

"in what is now upstate New York": this is my favorite part. I wonder if it was near what is now Poughkeepsie.

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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
QuirtEvans
Jan 7 2007, 03:12 AM
George K
Jan 6 2007, 08:07 PM
Just statistically speaking, even if he had the most benign form of melanoma (stage I), he was diagnosed in 2000. His 5 year survival is 75%. The 10 year survival is about the same. Again, just based on stats, he has a 1/4 chance of not surviving the decade (assuming the best-case scenario).

Look at recent photos of him and tell me that his tumor is under control. Unfortunately, it's not. Next time you see him on TV, pay attention to his left cheek. Look at the assymetry of his face. It's obvious, if you look.

I recall you saying that before, and I recall Bach telling you that you were wrong.

eh. just to set the record straight.

george and i have exchanged a few messages and posts on mcain's melanoma.

i mentioned to george thats its my personal feeling that the facial paralysis evident on his face is a result of facial nerve injury during one of his excisions which was close to the parotid gland. the facial nerve runs right through the parotid and cutting it will cause facial nerve paralysis with its obvious effect.

nontheless, mcain has had at least 3 recurrrences of melanoma in relatively short period, which means that the biology of his disease is probably more on the aggresive side.

and therefore the chance for yet another recurrence with or without metastatic involvement is considerable.

just to put it in perspective, if he wasnt mcain and or any other senator, i think he would have a pretty tough time buying life and/or health insurance at this juncture.
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
CTPianotech
Jan 7 2007, 03:09 AM
OperaTenor
Jan 6 2007, 07:15 PM
Jack Frost
Jan 6 2007, 03:20 PM
Posted Image



No doubt a one-sided perspective, but after reading this book I would have a hard time voting for anyone who was a serious Mormon.

jf

Posted Image

This is another good insight on the LDS church.

They're a bit looney.

I must confess, I didn't know Harry Reid was Mormon. That really cuts my estimation of him appreciably, not that I was ever in love with the guy in the first place.

Jack and OT, could you give me a brief run down of the loonyness the books describe?

i read krakuer's book and was riveted. for many reasons.

first of all because i think many fundamentalist streams have so many common idiosycracies that im convinced that the need to be..."fundamental" in any religion, is a character trait built someone's DNA and is not particular to a specific religion but rather a human trait which can find expression in many cultures.

secondly, face it, the mormon story is fascination and has all the aspects of a good story...history, passion, most of all taboo sex, its really quite amzing and krakauer is a great writer, on any topic.

loved his book on the guy who dissapeared in alaska, and certainly his best seller on everest. but ive followed him for some years before as a writer in outside magazine.

as for mormons per se, i think looney is not the right word. all beliefs can be considered looney by others, but the thing that makes it more bizarre and therefore more open to critique, is its "youngness"

most religious systems are based back in the dust of time, where we have very little information and much speculation. islam is such a young religion. even christianity is somewhat recent in the sense that the roman empire is relatively recent history. biblical judaism stretches back to a barely remembered and recognized era. as r the eastern religions.

but 19th century america is a heartbeat ago. the previous century is very well documented and understood. that being so, i think its easy to see that joseph smith and brigham young were quite eccentric in their actions.

anyway...read krakuer's book, its facinating.


"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Daniel\
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Fulla-Carp
According to what I read at Wiki-- they don't consider themselves Protestants but do consider themselves Christians. I wouldn't say it was the founding of a new religion. It seems more like a cult to me. In the history of Christianity it seems late in the game to be talking about burying a sacred book in what is now Upstate New York.



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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
bachophile
Jan 7 2007, 08:10 AM
QuirtEvans
Jan 7 2007, 03:12 AM
George K
Jan 6 2007, 08:07 PM
Just statistically speaking, even if he had the most benign form of melanoma (stage I), he was diagnosed in 2000. His 5 year survival is 75%. The 10 year survival is about the same. Again, just based on stats, he has a 1/4 chance of not surviving the decade (assuming the best-case scenario).

Look at recent photos of him and tell me that his tumor is under control. Unfortunately, it's not. Next time you see him on TV, pay attention to his left cheek. Look at the assymetry of his face. It's obvious, if you look.

I recall you saying that before, and I recall Bach telling you that you were wrong.

eh. just to set the record straight.

george and i have exchanged a few messages and posts on mcain's melanoma.

i mentioned to george thats its my personal feeling that the facial paralysis evident on his face is a result of facial nerve injury during one of his excisions which was close to the parotid gland. the facial nerve runs right through the parotid and cutting it will cause facial nerve paralysis with its obvious effect.

nontheless, mcain has had at least 3 recurrrences of melanoma in relatively short period, which means that the biology of his disease is probably more on the aggresive side.

and therefore the chance for yet another recurrence with or without metastatic involvement is considerable.

just to put it in perspective, if he wasnt mcain and or any other senator, i think he would have a pretty tough time buying life and/or health insurance at this juncture.

Thanks, I was sure that the concept of facial paralysis had been brought up in the earlier discussion.

And I suspect that your views may have changed based on recurrences since the original discussion took place. I say that because I don't recall that many recurrences at the time the original discussion took place.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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George K
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Finally
Quote:
 
Thanks, I was sure that the concept of facial paralysis had been brought up in the earlier discussion.

But not by me.
Quote:
 
And I suspect that your views may have changed based on recurrences since the original discussion took place. I say that because I don't recall that many recurrences at the time the original discussion took place.

The original discussions took place in late 2005, early 2006. McCain has had no surgery since that time, nor have there been any public announcements of recurrence since that time. His original surgery was in 1993 (it was on his shoulder). He had a facial lesion removed in 2000, and then he had a recurrence removed in 2002. Unless it's been hidden from the press, there have been no recurrences since our discussions took place.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Daniel
Jan 7 2007, 09:24 AM
I wouldn't say it was the founding of a new religion.  It seems more like a cult to me.

THats the point I made above. People view it more cult-like than religion-like.

Its interesting to desconstruct that, though - what's the difference between a cult and a religion? Certainly the distinction is one of degree, not type. For the most part it boils down to social acceptability, which is a function of (1) age, (2) number of adherents, and (3) the degree to which its beliefs and behaviors differ from other socially accepted systems.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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