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Tell me about this Beethoven; Pastoral Sonata
Topic Started: Dec 31 2006, 05:32 AM (566 Views)
George K
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I'm just finishing up the Op. 14 #1 sonata (yeah, I still stumble every now and then) but it's getting to be time to put it on the back burner and look at some new stuff to play. The "Mother Goose Suite" by Ravel is intriguing, but, somehow some of those harmonies just don't fit under the fingers, so I'm thinking it'll be one of those "work on it now and then and ask the teacher when I have a question" projects.

Been toying around with Beethoven's Op. 28 ("Pastoral Sonata") in D. The first movement looks pretty accessible, other than some tricky passagework (fingering-wise) at the end of the first theme. Second theme seems straightforward. The other 3(!) movements don't look too daunting, and the Rondo is (gasp!) pretty slow.

Whaddya all think?
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Mikhailoh
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I think it may well be the most beautiful piece of music I ever heard. It was the first piece of classical music I ever bought. You have the piano score for it? Where did get?

Wait.. are we talking about the symphony, or something else?

Never mind.. just got it off Sheetmusicarchive. nice!
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jon-nyc
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I'd rate it as more difficult than 14/1, which is probably one of the more accessible Sonatas.

But all in all if you can play 14/1 you should be able to learn 28.


Here's wiki's take on it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_Sonata_...%28Beethoven%29

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jon-nyc
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Of course, if its 'Pastorale' you're after, try the Liszt reduction of the 6th symphony! The first movement in particular is a gem.
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George K
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Mik - Check your e-mail in about 10 min....

Jon - Thanks. One thing I never understood about Beethoven sonatas is how the usual order of progression of difficulty is supposedly this:

1) Op. 49 #2
2) Op. 49 #1 (I still trip up at the Rondo)
3) Op. 79 - I have found Op.14 #1 to be a lot (a LOT) easier than this one.

Any thoughts?
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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jon-nyc
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Mikhailoh
Dec 31 2006, 08:35 AM
I think it may well be the most beautiful piece of music I ever heard. It was the first piece of classical music I ever bought.  You have the piano score for it?  Where did get?



Dover published all 9 in two volumes (1-5, 6-10) but its ****, like everything Dover has ever printed.


Better is Editio Budapest, probably the gold standard for Liszt anyway. Pricey but worth it. They did it in 3 vols, 1-4, 5-7, 8-9.

You can find it at Hutchins & Rea. Do a search on 'Beethoven Liszt Symphonies'


(edit - i assume you we're referring to the symphony above)
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jon-nyc
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George - i'd say 14/1 and 2/1 are easier than 79.
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George K
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Hutchins and Rea is fabulous. They ship fast and prices are reasonable (after all, who's gonna quibble about $1 extra or less?).

Edit to add:

Quote:
 
The whole sonata is in D major, and follows the typical four-movement form of the classical sonata.
Allegro
Andante
Scherzo et Trio: Allegro vivace
Rondo: Allegro non troppo


I'll bet the list of four movement classical sonatas is pretty short.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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jon-nyc
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George K
Dec 31 2006, 08:45 AM
Hutchins and Rea is fabulous. They ship fast and prices are reasonable (after all, who's gonna quibble about $1 extra or less?).

They sure are - I was just out there this morning (late xmas present for myself).

This is now on its way:

Title Composer Category Publisher Catalog
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Goldberg Variations, BWV 98 BACH, JOHANN SE Piano Solo (a Henle Urtext)
Piano Works Book 1 SCHUMANN, ROBER Piano Solo (a Henle Urtext)
Piano Works Book 2 SCHUMANN, ROBER Piano Solo (a Henle Urtext)
Piano Works Book 3 SCHUMANN, ROBER Piano Solo (a Henle Urtext)


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Mikhailoh
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jon-nyc
Dec 31 2006, 09:40 AM
Of course, if its 'Pastorale' you're after, try the Liszt reduction of the 6th symphony! The first movement in particular is a gem.

Thanks, Jon.. no coffee yet on my end.
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jon-nyc
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George K
Dec 31 2006, 08:45 AM
I'll bet the list of four movement classical sonatas is pretty short.

LvB had a decent number, 5 or 6?
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George K
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You're right, Jon, but still out of 32.....
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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jon-nyc
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Yeah - i think Op 106 would have been a lot more accessible had he stopped at 3!
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Phlebas
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Op. 28 is quite a bit more difficult than 14/1, but if you can play 14/1 pretty well you should be able to move on to Op. 28.

Op. 28 was originally conceived as a string quartet, so it helps to think of it - esp. the 1st movement - as 4 part writing where all the voices are important.
The second movement is the hardest because the articulation requires very careful timing with the pedal. It takes a lot of slow practice and listening to get that down. The scherzo has some very tricky broken octaves, and you have to be very careful with the rhythm. The last movement is fairly straightforward, but a lot of people make it tedious by overemphasizing the D pedal point. The coda takes a lot of dedicated practice.

It's one of my favorite Beethoven sonatas.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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jon-nyc
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jon-nyc
Dec 31 2006, 08:45 AM
George - i'd say 14/1 and 2/1 are easier than 79.

Just checked Hinson, his opinion is as follows:

49/2, 49/1, 2/1, 79, 14/1, 2/1, 14/2, 10/2, 10/1, 10/3, 13, 26, 27/1, 28....


I think he's crazy, I'd put 10/3 much higher in difficulty....


I also think 27/1 is harder than 27/2.


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George K
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Phlebas
Dec 31 2006, 08:06 AM
Op. 28 was originally conceived as a string quartet, so it helps to think of it - esp. the 1st movement - as 4 part writing where all the voices are important.

Phlebas, are you sure that you're not talking about Op 14 #1? I have a recording of it (at home - I'm at work now) done by a string quartet. I listed to Greenbergs "Beethoven's Piano Sonatas" by the Teaching Company, and he specifically comments about that being the case for Op. 14 #1.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Phlebas
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Off the top of my head, I think the Beethoven piano sonatas with 4 movements are as follows:
op. 2/1, 2/2, 2/3
op. 7.
op. 10/3
op. 22
op. 26
op. 27/1
op. 28
op. 31/3
op. 106

I can't think of any others. That's about 1/3 of them.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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Phlebas
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George K
Dec 31 2006, 06:13 AM
Phlebas
Dec 31 2006, 08:06 AM
Op. 28 was originally conceived as a string quartet, so it helps to think of it - esp. the 1st movement - as 4 part writing where all the voices are important.

Phlebas, are you sure that you're not talking about Op 14 #1? I have a recording of it (at home - I'm at work now) done by a string quartet. I listed to Greenbergs "Beethoven's Piano Sonatas" by the Teaching Company, and he specifically comments about that being the case for Op. 14 #1.

I think 14/1 was also. I don't have anything at hand that's authoritative, but years ago at a master class Barry Snyder said op. 28 was originally conceived as a string quartet. It makes sense with the writing.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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jon-nyc
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Hinson mentions 14/1 having been arranged as a string quartet by LvB.

(such a handy reference, this hinson)
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George K
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Phlebas
Dec 31 2006, 08:21 AM
I think 14/1 was also. I don't have anything at hand that's authoritative, but years ago at a master class Barry Snyder said op. 28 was originally conceived as a string quartet. It makes sense with the writing.

I don't know why I find it fascinating to hear music played on instruments that it is usually not heard on - Jon's comment about the Liszt reductions of Beethoven's symphonies are just fascinating to me. The string quartet version of Op. 14 #1 is delightful, and I try to keep that in mind when I play it, otherwise it's too easy to get heavy, especially in the Rondo.

Are there other works out there of that nature that completely change your perception when you hear them on other instruments?
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Phlebas
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Here's my ranking that I trot out any time someone asks, or - like now - when no one in particular asks :D It's very subjective, but this is how I would rank them:

1 - Op 49#2
2 - Op 49#1
3 - Op 14#1
4 - Op 2#1
5 - Op 79
6 - Op 10#1
7 - Op 14#2
8 - Op 10#2
9 - Op 26
10 - Op 13 "Pathetique"
11 - Op 54
12 - Op 27#2 "Moonlight"
13 - Op 28 "Pastoral"
14 - Op 31#3
15 - Op 78
16 - Op 31#2 "Tempest"
17 - Op. 22
18 - Op 2#3
19 - Op 2#2
20 - Op 90
21 - Op 31#1
22 - Op 27#1
23 - Op 10#3
24 - Op 7
25 - Op 110
26 - Op 57 "Appasionata"
27 - Op 109
28 - Op 81a "Les Adieux"
29 - Op 53 "Waldstein"
30 - Op 111
31 - Op 101
32 - Op 106 "Hammerklavier"
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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jon-nyc
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George K
Dec 31 2006, 09:25 AM
Are there other works out there of that nature that completely change your perception when you hear them on other instruments?

Good question.

I really appreciate the Liszt reducitons of the Syphonies. THey may be 'pianistic', but you really hear things that don't always come out in the Symphonies.


Other examples... Brahms Op 34 - hearing it on 2 pianos was quite interesting.

THen there's music that was written at the piano and later orchestrated - much of Ravel comes to mind and Moussorgsky's pictures (orchestrated by Ravel). Much of this is more commonly heard in orchestration, so when you do hear it on the piano its enlightening.


Another example is Bach's Chaconne - I much prefer the piano version (Busoni or Brahms, as different as they are) to the original.

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Phlebas
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George K
Dec 31 2006, 06:25 AM


Are there other works out there of that nature that completely change your perception when you hear them on other instruments?

Bach immediately comes to mind. He used a lot of the same material in his suites for different instruments - cello, lute, keyboard, etc.
Also the different transcriptions for piano of the Chaconne for solo violin is instructive to listen to on the original instrument it was written for, which from the performances I've heard people don't do as much.

Also, ravel's transcriptions for orchestra of his piano music are interesting.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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George K
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jon-nyc
Dec 31 2006, 08:31 AM
Other examples... Brahms Op 34 - hearing it on 2 pianos was quite interesting.

There is a set of recordings of ALL of Brahms works for two pianos. I've heard some of it, and it is, well, interesting, especially "Ein Deutsches Requiem." Some of the symphonies work pretty well, as does the chamber music. I believe it's on Naxos.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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jon-nyc
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George K
Dec 31 2006, 09:36 AM
There is a set of recordings of ALL of Brahms works for two pianos. I've heard some of it, and it is, well, interesting, especially "Ein Deutsches Requiem." Some of the symphonies work pretty well, as does the chamber music. I believe it's on Naxos.

I have a couple of CDs from that set.
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