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| Racism, and a green eye? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 19 2006, 05:51 AM (425 Views) | |
| CrashTest | Dec 19 2006, 05:51 AM Post #1 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I've noticed that a few people take offense when certain races are either given some sort of free leave as it may pertain to certain areas, or get free incentives that they themselves do not get. (Affirmative action, etc) The logic behind these liberties is that they come as a sort of reparation for injustices done in the past that have caused inequality in society - but I am sure some would like to argue just what the caliber of these injustices were. What is the psychology behind this indignation on the part of the more so-called privileged people or race? The argument here is that just because one may be white it does not necessarily mean that one will have had advantages in life - and that is reasonable. Perhaps the crux of the argument will be fully explored when one exams this matter as a whole - and see the correlation with privilege as it pertains to percentages of people in comparison to other races. So simply, while there are cases to the exception - certain races have had an advantage in American society. No one who can look at the last three hundred years of American History will be apt to argue. Repressive laws that prohibit social and economic mobilization are found in abundant examples, but it seems that history sometimes has a very short memory. |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 19 2006, 06:18 AM Post #2 |
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MAMIL
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I don't have a moral problem with the idea of positive discrimination/affirmitive action or whatever you want to call it. Calling it racism is overly simplistic and ignores the fact that left to itself a society will often discriminate against racial minorities. The idea that in general racial minorities have just as much opportunity as the white middle class is bogus. The problem as I see it is that affirmitive action doesn't actually solve the problems of discrimination, and in many cases it is actually likely to lead more bad feeling and bigotry. In other words, it doesn't work. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| kenny | Dec 19 2006, 06:32 AM Post #3 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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So what's the answer? How do we get race to not matter to anyone? |
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| Mark | Dec 19 2006, 06:34 AM Post #4 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Teach your children well. |
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___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 19 2006, 06:36 AM Post #5 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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This from a pianist kid whose parents or trust fund or whatever endowment bought him a Hummer while going to college, also on someone else's nickel. Yeesh. Crash, wait until you grow up and go into the real world to comment on these things. Discrimination has been done on many different criteria through history, including American. Does 'Irish need not apply' sound familiar? And Polish, and French, and Englishmen in French territories and on and on and on. It is not always race based. The people who came to America have by and large been the most disadvantaged of their native lands. You cannot legislate respect for others. Respect is earned, and is deserved by some and not by others. But it is and should be by what you DO, not your skin color. It is very easy for you to say 'oh, let's make it up to these poor folks by lowering the bar'. You will never be passed over for a promotion only to see it go to someone with far less seniority and qualifications. I have seen that happen to my uncle. Explain to him why his future should have been less .. why HE had to pay for the long past actions of people he never knew and was not related to. All my relatives were from Canada. It is wrong.. plain and simple. In obtaining what is deemed justice for the one, you do an injustice to the other. That just can't be the right way to go about it. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| kenny | Dec 19 2006, 06:36 AM Post #6 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Laws try to work from the outside in. But the solution must be from the inside out.
Bingo. It is too late for adults. Short of sterilizing racists there is no hope. What a parent teaches a child in the home is one of the most strongly protected rights we have. |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 19 2006, 06:44 AM Post #7 |
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MAMIL
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That's it. I've noticed the innocent way my five year old has dealt with skin colour - he really and truly doesn't care less about it when he's making friends, but doesn't see it as something to avoid discussing, occasionally (to our mild embarrassment) in a rather loud voice. It's a real shame we don't seem able to retain this innocence. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 19 2006, 06:49 AM Post #8 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Teaching our children to be open minded is a good and important step, but it is not the full answer. I was brought up in a totally non-prejudiced home. Slurs were not allowed for any group. I have some racial prejudices, but they are based on my own personal experiences, not my upbringing. I don't let it color my relationships with anyone I meet. But I've had some rather unpleasant and distasteful experiences with African Americans over the years. No white person has ever stuck a gun in my face. Two different black men have. My impressions have been based on behavior, not on skin color alone. And that brings me to my final point. Do some minorities, most notable black Americans have some disadvantages? Indisputably. But legislation past the point we have already gone to, equality, is not ever going to fix race relations. It will be fixed when we ALL behave respectably, one to the other. And we're getting there, but it will take time. Doing injustice to someone else is certainly not the way to get there. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 19 2006, 06:50 AM Post #9 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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That is a quote that bears repeating. Bravo. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| CrashTest | Dec 19 2006, 06:54 AM Post #10 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Mikhailoh, I don't appreciate you incorrectly guessing at my personal situation - it is not relevant to my post. |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 19 2006, 07:04 AM Post #11 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Sure it is. I'm sure you have worked very hard to get where you are, but you didn't get that Hummer from a music scholarship. I hear you talking about objectifying women, then taking the huge high road in race relations. Even considering your sense of humor, it is a walk through the looking glass. If you are so convinced that we have to sacrrifice to help someone out, why don't you give that SUV to a poor disadvantaged person who needs a ride? Young minorities can't afford a Hummer.. but YOU can change that.. if YOU want to make the sacrifice. Until you are willing to do that, it is fairly absurd for you to call for others to sacrifice their careers to advance the careers of those less qualified. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| ny1911 | Dec 19 2006, 07:12 AM Post #12 |
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Senior Carp
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It's too late for weak adults. There's no reason adult with principles can't change their views. |
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So live your life and live it well. There's not much left of me to tell. I just got back up each time I fell. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 19 2006, 07:14 AM Post #13 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Agreed.. just because I have bad experiences with some does not mean it has to color my relationships with all. And it does not. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| The 89th Key | Dec 19 2006, 07:21 AM Post #14 |
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You take race-based ANYTHING out of all legislation. Rather...the only time race should be a factor, is if a government-run anything negatively discriminates against a particular race or races. |
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| The 89th Key | Dec 19 2006, 07:22 AM Post #15 |
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I have a problem with the government trying to force change by doing the very thing it's fighting against. Period. |
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| The 89th Key | Dec 19 2006, 07:24 AM Post #16 |
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Very good post, Mik. |
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| CrashTest | Dec 19 2006, 08:00 AM Post #17 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I merely was commenting on the indignation of some towards giving underprivileged minorities certain advantages - I am making no comment on what is or isn't sacrificed. Regardless, it isn't always the case where in order to give to one, you must take from another - a lot of it is just plain equal opportunity. That is hard enough to get, never mind things like affirmative action which are merely social experiments. As to your other comment on objectifying women, There is a separation between reality and humor. I think you know who the real womanizers are in the world - just because I comment on it using humor does not remove my ability to reason on more serious subjects. What I find funny is you saying "it is fairly absurd for you to call for others to sacrifice their careers to advance the careers of those less qualified." Now, I don't really see where I even mentioned anything close to this. I think this is a case of confirmation bias - i.e you are looking for anything to confirm what you already believe is the case separate from reality. I am commenting on the attitudes of individuals, and not on what they should or should not do. Insinuate from that what you may, but don't put words in my mouth. What I will say regarding affirmative action is this: Now it seems like an unfair advantage and people who are qualified get looked over - but what about 100 years ago? Even 50 or 40 years ago? Minorities, not only African Americans - often had no chance at social or economic movement. To me, it's like crying over spilled milk in comparison to the history of unfairness that has taken place. |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 19 2006, 08:07 AM Post #18 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Very well.. what is your position, then, Crash? I took your first post to be supportive of affirmative action and the like, based on historical white advantage. If that is not what it is, then please do explain. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| CrashTest | Dec 19 2006, 08:11 AM Post #19 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I merely want people to get as close to equal opportunity for colleges or employment as possible. For example, I would never want an under qualified individual to win out over a more qualified one just based on race - but there is a Grey area. I want close to equal opportunity, but I know that full equality is not possible. If they are close in skill, things such as race, economic class, and the like can and should be used to see who needs it more. That's not a bad idea is it? If both are qualified, something has to be done to separate them. It seems like a broken record to say that minorities were greatly underprivileged for most of the 19th and 20th century - but it is an important point. Families never got the chance to establish themselves, and social and economic mobility was severely limited. Add to that continuing racism after the laws have allowed more equality, and the playing field still is not even. It'd be easy to just say that everyone is on their own, the process of jobs and school will be completely objective - no help. The issue here is that realistically, certain people have a tremendous advantage - and it just works out that this correlates to race. There are poor white people too, of course - but when talking in percentages and ratios, minorities are by far underprivileged. So in conclusion - a fair system would not only take race into account, but also economic situation. This is harder to apply and prove, so that is why race generally is the biggest factor - but a more intelligent system has to be put in place. At least like this, people won't fall through the cracks while bigger issues are being addressed. This is idealistic, as you can never save everyone - it is likely a case of triage - minorities are commonly poorer, so they are taken care of first in a more general way. Not fair all of the time, but the system needs improvement. |
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| The 89th Key | Dec 19 2006, 08:20 AM Post #20 |
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Crash,
As do I. Hence...not bringing in race as a factor.
That's exactly what AA does.
Bringing in race, is a bad idea. Bringing in economic class, isn't. (If, as you say, they HAVE to be separated somehow)
So base it on socio-economic status, not skin color.
Daniel, getting into college, getting a job, and getting contracts as a business owner...simply because I'm a white male, I'm more discriminated against than anyone.
No, a fair system wouldn't take into account race. |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 19 2006, 08:24 AM Post #21 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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I disagree. Race, ethnic or class background must be utterly irrelevant in the hiring/promotion process, otherwise there is discrimination. I can see why you might think that is a good idea, but you don't establish equality by raising any group over another. It breeds more racial division than it solves. Frankly, that which can be done by legislation has been done. The rest of it is up to the individuals involved on all sides. That will require parents not to pass on biases and for improved responsibility and industry within minority communities. There just isn't any other way. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| CrashTest | Dec 19 2006, 08:25 AM Post #22 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Ideally social-economic need would be addressed first. But what has happened is that race and lower economic status has been correlated to some extent, so there is a focus on that. There is no denying that minorities such as blacks, Native Americans, and even Hispanics are generally lower on the economic scale compared to whites. A system based purely on economic need would end up helping minorities the most regardless - but perhaps then some poor whites would be saved from falling through the cracks. |
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| Mikhailoh | Dec 19 2006, 08:29 AM Post #23 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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And the problem with basing it on socio-economic status is that you automatically discriminate against those who have worked hard to prepare themselves versus those who have not. That is not the way America is supposed to work. The government needs to get clean out of social engineering, and to promote self-reliance. Period. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| The 89th Key | Dec 19 2006, 09:47 AM Post #24 |
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Mik is 100% right and that last sentence is perfect. Get out of social-engineering and encourage self-reliance. That's the only way. Legislation has been done, and if a state-sponsored school discriminates, then penalize the hell out of them. Enforce the law. The only way. By the way, you'll notice I only mention "state-sponsored" or "government-related", etc...because personally I think if a private business wants to discriminate, then they have the right to. But that's another story. |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 19 2006, 09:56 AM Post #25 |
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MAMIL
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So you think racism is acceptable as long as it isn't state-sponsored? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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