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Those Revoltin' Episcopalians!
Topic Started: Dec 17 2006, 06:18 AM (2,179 Views)
John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Daniel
Dec 18 2006, 07:06 PM
Dewey, what I want to know is how many Episcopalian churchs/members and how many of other mainline denominations will be leaving (putting themselves up for adoption by churches in Africa...?) and what are the larger implications of this (if there are any). My understanding (and it's not much) is that it will end up being a small number. I've read 9%. If you have any comments about this I'd like to hear them.

As a vaguely interested onlooker, it strikes me that there could well be implications for the Anglican church as a whole. Never mind the 'looney left' USA, Lambeth Palace and Canterbury is considerably more liberal than much of Africa, and I think holding the various parts together is going to be quite a challenge in the long run for whoever decides to take it on. The English do love compromise, so I guess that will probably be the outcome.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
AlbertaCrude
Dec 18 2006, 07:11 PM
We dealt with theodicy last week. No sense rehashing it again.

Quote:
 
...pointed toward the idea of a father sacrificing his only begotten, the great sorrow on the part of both father and child, at the same time as the willingness of the child to accept the situation in order to fulfill what was seen as a higher good


Fufill a higher good? Interesting, though I'll hold my comment for now..

Quote:
 
We dealt with theodicy last week. No sense rehashing it again.


You brung it up. ^_^

Quote:
 
Fufill a higher good?


No, I said "...in order to fulfill what was seen as a higher good..." I wasn't being wordy for no reason; I wrote it that way deliberately. I'm already on record as believing that Jephthah's vow was not good, necessary, or in any way what God would have asked or expected of Jepthah, or his daughter. However, apparently Jephthah placed a very high significance on a vow made to God, and his daughter apparently agreed with his high valuation of its significance. Their actions were well-intentioned but severely misguided.

I also believe that the extent that Jephthah's daughter's innocence, in this case in the form of her virginity, and the fact that her sacrifice was not caused by anything she'd done - the outrageous injustice of it - to also be significant to the archetype intended to resonate in the hearts and minds of later generations. It's also sort of interesting that we have non-sexist "bookend" archetypal parallels of Christ's sacrificial atonement, in Abraham's son and Jephthah's daughter.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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AlbertaCrude
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ivorythumper
Dec 18 2006, 04:15 PM
In 2000 years even the Catholic Church has never stated that any one person was in mortal sin.

:blink: So why was Jan Hus, to name but one heretic, burned at the stake? Seems to be a pretty high price to pay for a venial sin, when a couple of Hail Mary's and an Act of Contrition would suffice.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Dewey
Dec 18 2006, 03:52 PM
Jolly
Dec 18 2006, 04:20 PM
What was the last thing Jesus said to the woman at the well?

Jesus' words to the woman at the well are applicable to all, and compliance with them is similarly impossible for all. If a person is inelegible to serve an ordained call on the basis that they cannot avoid sinning, there would be no ordinations.

People sin. Even if they don't want to. Even with the help of the Holy Spirit in their lives. We're all neck-deep in it, whether we like it or not. And while we have no authority to call sin anything other than sin, or to do other than to continually work to avoid sin, neither do we have any authority to judge others more harshly for their sins than we accept for our own.

Why did Jesus tell the woman to do the impossible?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Dec 18 2006, 05:24 PM
ivorythumper
Dec 18 2006, 04:15 PM
In 2000 years even the Catholic Church has never stated that any one person was in mortal sin.

:blink: So why was Jan Hus, to name but one heretic, burned at the stake? Seems to be a pretty high price to pay for a venial sin, when a couple of Hail Mary's and an Act of Contrition would suffice.

No one is burned for mortal sin. The sensibility of the age, as I am sure you know, was such that heresy was considered a capital offense. Unthinkable today, thank God, but there you go.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
[Most of the civilised world has heard this old chestnut, but I'll tell it anyway as it's marginally relevant, and almost certainly blasphemous]

Jesus is preaching to his flock when he notices a great kerfuffle going on near one of the shopping areas. A crowd gathers to see a rather scruffy looking specimen being dragged into the courtyard by a couple of the local traders.

'He stole this food!' one of them shouts.
'And pinched my wife's ample bottom' another chimes in, to much outrage.

Before you can say 'righteous indignation' a stoning party is put together, and the various holy folk are about to start with the proceedings. Jesus steps into the mob, and begins to remonstrate with them, and then walks over to the poor wretch who is the unwilling centre of attention.

'He may be a sinner, but who amongst you can say that he is so much better than he?' - much mumbling...

He turns his back to the crowd, to look closer at the prisoner, and says the immortal words 'Let he who is without sin, throw the first stone' before receiving a surprisingly painful impact on the back of the head.

Turning, he looks into the crowd, before saying, in a quiet, and rather disappointed voice 'Sometimes Mother, you really piss me off'.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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AlbertaCrude
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So long as heresy isn't a mortal sin- the coupling of a mortal sin and a captial offense is too much for me to take in one sitting (mind you I think those Dominionists discussed in the other thread would likely institute it as a suitable and perfectly justifiable punishment) .

BTW, doesn't this all somehow tie back into Jolly's question about the woman at the well?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Daniel
Dec 18 2006, 07:06 PM
Dewey, what I want to know is how many Episcopalian churchs/members and how many of other mainline denominations will be leaving (putting themselves up for adoption by churches in Africa...?) and what are the larger implications of this (if there are any).  My understanding (and it's not much) is that it will end up being a small number. I've read 9%.  If you have any comments about this I'd like to hear them.

Well, as I've written before, the Episcopalians and the Presbies are going through essentially the same issues. Beyond the theological debate is a pragmatic one that is also paralleled in both denominations, which will have a major impact on how many congregations or churches leave the fold - the issue of property ownership. In both denominations, the individual congregation's property is held "in trust for" the congregation by a larger regional body (I don't know what the Episcopalians call their regional body, we call ours the "Presbytery"). There have been several court cases dealing with this issue - and all really originating in the difference of opinion regarding the "gay issue" - and so far, the courts have upheld the regional body's stance that they hold the property.

Now in the real world, what does this mean? If a particular congregation voted in the neighborhood of, say, 90% or greater (I don't know where they'd really draw the line, I'm just picking a number to make a point) to "secede" from the denomination, the denomination would likely reach some reasonable accommodation to transfer ownership to the congregation - on the grounds that if there's not a large enough number of people left to support a congregation there, the property isn't much more than a boat anchor to a denomination already beset by budget challenges. But, if the percentage to "secede" were a simple majority, but not as overwhelming, they'd probably hold fast to the property, keeping it for the "remnant" congregation.

Because of this economic reality, what is likely to happen is that not many entire congregations will actually dissolve their relations with the denomination - although some definitely have, and will. What will happen in more cases is that those upset with the denominational stance will simply leave as individuals and start a new congregation, affliated with a denomination, or portion of one, more in keeping with their own views. Just as the Episcopalians would "shop" themselves to other Episcopalian wings, conservative Presbies currently in the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America ("PCUSA", the largest Presby denom) would have the option of starting new congregations and affiliating with the Presbyterian Church in America, the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and several others. Presbies seem to have some big traumatic split like this every 80 years or so, then go through countless reunions and re-splits. It's all just part of our denominational history. I don't get too worked up over it personally.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jolly
Dec 18 2006, 07:34 PM
Dewey
Dec 18 2006, 03:52 PM
Jolly
Dec 18 2006, 04:20 PM
What was the last thing Jesus said to the woman at the well?

Jesus' words to the woman at the well are applicable to all, and compliance with them is similarly impossible for all. If a person is inelegible to serve an ordained call on the basis that they cannot avoid sinning, there would be no ordinations.

People sin. Even if they don't want to. Even with the help of the Holy Spirit in their lives. We're all neck-deep in it, whether we like it or not. And while we have no authority to call sin anything other than sin, or to do other than to continually work to avoid sin, neither do we have any authority to judge others more harshly for their sins than we accept for our own.

Why did Jesus tell the woman to do the impossible?

Jesus told the woman to do the impossible, just as God the Father told all humanity to do the impossible in telling us to obey the Ten Commandments. Our inability to live up to our end of God's requirement that we be holy has nothing to do with God's requirement that we must be so in order to be in God's presence. We are saved only through God's completely unearned grace, not in any way by our ability to earn it through our own successes at holy and righteous living. The best that any of us can do is to avoid the sins that we can avoid, and ask for forgiveness and accept atonement through Christ for those sins that we cannot avoid.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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OperaTenor
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Pisa-Carp
Jolly
Dec 18 2006, 04:34 PM
Dewey
Dec 18 2006, 03:52 PM
Jolly
Dec 18 2006, 04:20 PM
What was the last thing Jesus said to the woman at the well?

Jesus' words to the woman at the well are applicable to all, and compliance with them is similarly impossible for all. If a person is inelegible to serve an ordained call on the basis that they cannot avoid sinning, there would be no ordinations.

People sin. Even if they don't want to. Even with the help of the Holy Spirit in their lives. We're all neck-deep in it, whether we like it or not. And while we have no authority to call sin anything other than sin, or to do other than to continually work to avoid sin, neither do we have any authority to judge others more harshly for their sins than we accept for our own.

Why did Jesus tell the woman to do the impossible?

In a word: Hope.



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AlbertaCrude
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Dewey
 
Jolly
 
What was the last thing Jesus said to the woman at the well?

Jesus' words to the woman at the well are applicable to all, and compliance with them is similarly impossible for all. Why did Jesus tell the woman to do the impossible?

Did Jesus ask the impossible? Or did Jesus just ask a similar question that the Buddha would have asked one his students?
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Jesus didn't ask a question, he offered a command. And yes, for the record, I believe that it was a command that was literally impossible for fallen humanity to live up to. I understand that there is some difference of opinion between at least Calvinist Protestantism and Orthodoxy, and possibly other splits, regarding this question, but it's my belief that we are completely incapable of living a righteous life satisfactory to merit God's approval, by our own doing.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
The big split is between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism on this question. I think Calvinism and Orthodoxy may have more in common on this issue- although, as you point out, there is a difference.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Dewey
Dec 18 2006, 06:52 PM
Jolly
Dec 18 2006, 07:34 PM
Dewey
Dec 18 2006, 03:52 PM
Jolly
Dec 18 2006, 04:20 PM
What was the last thing Jesus said to the woman at the well?

Jesus' words to the woman at the well are applicable to all, and compliance with them is similarly impossible for all. If a person is inelegible to serve an ordained call on the basis that they cannot avoid sinning, there would be no ordinations.

People sin. Even if they don't want to. Even with the help of the Holy Spirit in their lives. We're all neck-deep in it, whether we like it or not. And while we have no authority to call sin anything other than sin, or to do other than to continually work to avoid sin, neither do we have any authority to judge others more harshly for their sins than we accept for our own.

Why did Jesus tell the woman to do the impossible?

Jesus told the woman to do the impossible, just as God the Father told all humanity to do the impossible in telling us to obey the Ten Commandments. Our inability to live up to our end of God's requirement that we be holy has nothing to do with God's requirement that we must be so in order to be in God's presence. We are saved only through God's completely unearned grace, not in any way by our ability to earn it through our own successes at holy and righteous living. The best that any of us can do is to avoid the sins that we can avoid, and ask for forgiveness and accept atonement through Christ for those sins that we cannot avoid.

I think you're part-way there... ;)

Committing a sin can be a gray area at times...what one person may have conviction about another may not have.

But sometimes sin is not such a gray area. Sometimes what delineates a sin is cast in stone, so to speak.

Now Jesus was telling the woman to "Go and sin no more". Not try not to, not give it your best shot, but no, N-O, no. Just as God gives us Grace, he also demands our best. When we know that something is wrong, we should try our best not to commit that sin. And if we do "fall off the wagon", it is our Christian duty to atone, ask forgiveness, and make matters right as quickly as we can.

Getting back to our original subject matter, we have people who wear the cloth, yet knowingly commit sin and rationalize it.

You can't slice that thin enough to ignore it.

Yes, all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. Man should repent of his sins, man should be humble. To say, "Gee, I'm spitting in God's eye, but I don't care, I'm still clergy, implies...no, comes right out and shouts - "God, I know better than you!".

Man is man. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I doubt very seriously that man of a thousand years ago, or two thousand years ago is any more enlighted in God's eyes, or any less so, than the men of today.

Man has this propensity to want to stand, when he should kneel.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
Now Jesus was telling the woman to "Go and sin no more". Not try not to, not give it your best shot, but no, N-O, no.


Exactly. Just as had been said a few years earlier: "Thou Shalt Not..." It's the same thing.

If all I had to do were to try not to sin, I could do that on my own. God's command is to not sin. I can't meet that standard. neither can you, or anyone else. If I could, then Christ's death and resurrection would have been entirely meaningless, and unecessary to cover over and atone for those sins that continue to stain my life. The entire Christian faith would be just a bad dream, and you and I would be the most pathetic of fools ever born.

Quote:
 
Getting back to our original subject matter, we have people who wear the cloth, yet knowingly commit sin and rationalize it.


I'm going to go you one further: All people who wear the cloth knowingly commit sin and rationalize it. Let me repeat that: ALL of them. Every single day of their existence. So do all people who don't wear the cloth. And they are not prohibited from pursuing an ordained call in response to that part of their nature.

Sure, it may vary from one ordaining body to another which sins are tolerable and which aren't. But at the end of the day, they all make rationalizations and justifications for particular types of sin that are simply more in keeping with their own flawed human viewpoints.

All of them. Presbyterians. Baptists. Catholics. Lutherans. Methodists. Episcopalians. All of them, friend.

Quote:
 
You can't slice that thin enough to ignore it.


Nor what I just said, although many try mightily to do just that.

I've written at length in the past on this issue. What it still comes down to, for me, is that all believers continue to sin, and they all do so in multiple ways. Some sins are committed unknowingly. Still others are seen for what they are, and the person sincerely tries to turn completely away from them, but occasionally stumbles. Yet others are sins that the individual commits in order to achieve what they feel to be a greater good, a trade-off of sorts. Many are sins that the believer doesn't even believe are really sins at all. And every believer commits every one of these kinds of sin. Yet we all ask Christ's forgiveness of our sins, while at the same time expecting Christ's agreement with us on our definitions as well.

In reality though, we're each deluding ourselves, to some degree, about our own shortcomings. We each stitch our own comfortable, custom-tailored heresy. We all commit sin that we know is wrong, yet we can't/don't turn away from. We all commit sin that we don't believe is sin. We all think the other guy's sin is worse than our own.

If we do not treat all other believers with the same level of toleration that we believe we are owed ourselves, then we are the worst sort of hypocrites - ones who claim to speak for God while holding others to a different standard that we apply to ourselves. Maybe that's the worst sin that we can commit. Jesus did have a few things to say about people like that.

We're not really talking about failing to call out sin for what it is. We're talking about coming to grips with the reality that we're all incapable of ever really getting out of the mud ourselves.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
Dewey
Dec 18 2006, 09:04 PM
We all think the other guy's sin is worse than our own.


I agree with nearly everything you said, with the exception of the above. Some of us do, indeed, understand our personal level of wretchedness. My opinion is that if one goes more than a couple hours without using 1 John 1:9, they're either on vacation someplace amazing or they're practicing self-delusion.


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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
DivaDeb
Dec 18 2006, 09:19 PM
Dewey
Dec 18 2006, 09:04 PM
We all think the other guy's sin is worse than our own.


I agree with nearly everything you said, with the exception of the above.

[kicks dirt]Okay, okay, I've give you that one... [/kicks dirt]

^_^
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
While I accept that my view of the world may be warped, I am most certainly not wretched in my current state of imperfection.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Dec 18 2006, 05:43 PM
So long as heresy isn't a mortal sin- the coupling of a mortal sin and a captial offense is too much for me to take in one sitting (mind you I think those Dominionists discussed in the other thread would likely institute it as a suitable and perfectly justifiable punishment) .

BTW, doesn't this all somehow tie back into Jolly's question about the woman at the well?

fear not him who can destroy the body... and all that.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
AlbertaCrude
Dec 18 2006, 06:07 PM
The big split is between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism on this question. I think Calvinism and Orthodoxy may have more in common on this issue- although, as you point out, there is a difference.

I dunno -- I don't think that the Church has ever said that human perfection is possible without grace. What do you have in mind?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Quote:
 
I've written at length in the past on this issue. What it still comes down to, for me, is that all believers continue to sin, and they all do so in multiple ways. Some sins are committed unknowingly. Still others are seen for what they are, and the person sincerely tries to turn completely away from them, but occasionally stumbles. Yet others are sins that the individual commits in order to achieve what they feel to be a greater good, a trade-off of sorts. Many are sins that the believer doesn't even believe are really sins at all. And every believer commits every one of these kinds of sin. Yet we all ask Christ's forgiveness of our sins, while at the same time expecting Christ's agreement with us on our definitions as well.

In reality though, we're each deluding ourselves, to some degree, about our own shortcomings. We each stitch our own comfortable, custom-tailored heresy. We all commit sin that we know is wrong, yet we can't/don't turn away from. We all commit sin that we don't believe is sin. We all think the other guy's sin is worse than our own.


Yes, we all commit sin we don't believe is sin - that's where conviction comes in.

But...if conviction does not enter into the equation and the sin is well delineated (you pick 'em - prostitution, abandonment of family, cheating on the spouse, practicing homosexuality, thievery, gluttony, lying, etc.), can any man deny that sin and stand before other men, effectively preaching the word of God?
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
AlbertaCrude
Dec 18 2006, 10:06 PM
While accept that my view of the world may be warped, I am most certainly not wretched in my current state of imperfection.

congrats, ya got me beat by a country mile
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
ivorythumper
Dec 18 2006, 07:12 PM
AlbertaCrude
Dec 18 2006, 06:07 PM
The big split is between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism on this question. I think Calvinism and Orthodoxy may have more in common on this issue- although, as you point out, there is a difference.

I dunno -- I don't think that the Church has ever said that human perfection is possible without grace. What do you have in mind?

Probably something more consequentialist.

Quote:
 
congrats, ya got me beat by a country mile


Well, there's plenty of time to catch up. My lungs and knees aren't what they used to be.
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Daniel\
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Fulla-Carp
I wish I could come up with something intelligent to say about this. I have been trying. The bottom line for me is that it is not my business what other people do in their churches.

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Daniel\
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Dewey
Dec 18 2006, 04:46 PM
Well, as I've written before, the Episcopalians and the Presbies are going through essentially the same issues. Beyond the theological debate is a pragmatic one that is also paralleled in both denominations, which will have a major impact on how many congregations or churches leave the fold - the issue of property ownership. In both denominations, the individual congregation's property is held "in trust for" the congregation by a larger regional body (I don't know what the Episcopalians call their regional body, we call ours the "Presbytery"). There have been several court cases dealing with this issue - and all really originating in the difference of opinion regarding the "gay issue" - and so far, the courts have upheld the regional body's stance that they hold the property.

Now in the real world, what does this mean? If a particular congregation voted in the neighborhood of, say, 90% or greater (I don't know where they'd really draw the line, I'm just picking a number to make a point) to "secede" from the denomination, the denomination would likely reach some reasonable accommodation to transfer ownership to the congregation - on the grounds that if there's not a large enough number of people left to support a congregation there, the property isn't much more than a boat anchor to a denomination already beset by budget challenges. But, if the percentage to "secede" were a simple majority, but not as overwhelming, they'd probably hold fast to the property, keeping it for the "remnant" congregation.

Because of this economic reality, what is likely to happen is that not many entire congregations will actually dissolve their relations with the denomination - although some definitely have, and will. What will happen in more cases is that those upset with the denominational stance will simply leave as individuals and start a new congregation, affliated with a denomination, or portion of one, more in keeping with their own views. Just as the Episcopalians would "shop" themselves to other Episcopalian wings, conservative Presbies currently in the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America ("PCUSA", the largest Presby denom) would have the option of starting new congregations and affiliating with the Presbyterian Church in America, the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, the Cumberland Presbyterian Church, the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, and several others. Presbies seem to have some big traumatic split like this every 80 years or so, then go through countless reunions and re-splits. It's all just part of our denominational history. I don't get too worked up over it personally.

Thank you.

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