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| Those Revoltin' Episcopalians! | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 17 2006, 06:18 AM (2,176 Views) | |
| George K | Dec 17 2006, 06:18 AM Post #1 |
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Finally
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Episcopalians Reaching the Point of Revolt By LAURIE GOODSTEIN For about 30 years, the Episcopal Church has been one big unhappy family. Under one roof there were female bishops and male bishops who would not ordain women. There were parishes that celebrated gay weddings and parishes that denounced them; theologians sure that Jesus was the only route to salvation, and theologians who disagreed. Now, after years of threats, the family is breaking up. As many as eight conservative Episcopal churches in Virginia are expected to announce today that their parishioners have voted to cut their ties with the Episcopal Church. Two are large, historic congregations that minister to the Washington elite and occupy real estate worth a combined $27 million, which could result in a legal battle over who keeps the property. In a twist, these wealthy American congregations are essentially putting themselves up for adoption by Anglican archbishops in poorer dioceses in Africa, Asia and Latin America who share conservative theological views about homosexuality and the interpretation of Scripture with the breakaway Americans. “The Episcopalian ship is in trouble,” said the Rev. John Yates, rector of The Falls Church, one of the two large Virginia congregations, where George Washington served on the vestry. “So we’re climbing over the rails down to various little lifeboats. There’s a lifeboat from Bolivia, one from Rwanda, another from Nigeria. Their desire is to help us build a new ship in North America, and design it and get it sailing.” Together, these Americans and their overseas allies say they intend to form a new American branch that would rival or even supplant the Episcopal Church in the worldwide Anglican Communion, a confederation of national churches that trace their roots to the Church of England and the archbishop of Canterbury. The archbishop of Canterbury, the Most Rev. Rowan Williams, is now struggling to hold the communion together while facing a revolt on many fronts from emboldened conservatives. Last week, conservative priests in the Church of England warned him that they would depart if he did not allow them to sidestep liberal bishops and report instead to sympathetic conservatives. In Virginia, the two large churches are voting on whether they want to report to the powerful archbishop of Nigeria, Peter Akinola, an outspoken opponent of homosexuality who supports legislation in his country that would make it illegal for gay men and lesbians to form organizations, read gay literature or eat together in a restaurant. Archbishop Akinola presides over the largest province in the 77-million-member Anglican Communion; it has more than 17 million members, dwarfing the Episcopal Church, with 2.3 million. If all eight Virginia churches vote to separate, the Diocese of Virginia, the largest Episcopal diocese in the country, will lose about 10 percent of its 90,000 members. In addition, four churches in Virginia have already voted to secede, and two more are expected to vote soon, said Patrick N. Getlein, secretary of the diocese. Two weeks ago, the entire diocese in San Joaquin, Calif., voted to sever its ties with the Episcopal Church, a decision it would have to confirm in a second vote next year. Six or more American dioceses say they are considering such a move. In the last three years, since the Episcopal Church consecrated V. Gene Robinson, a gay man who lives with his partner, as bishop of New Hampshire, about three dozen American churches have voted to secede and affiliate with provinces overseas, according to The Episcopal News Service. However, the secession effort in Virginia is being closely watched by Anglicans around the world because so many churches are poised to depart simultaneously. Virginia has become a central stage, both for those pushing for secession and for those trying to prevent it. The Diocese of Virginia is led by Bishop Peter James Lee, the longest-serving Episcopal bishop and a centrist who, both sides agree, has been gracious to the disaffected churches and worked to keep them in the fold. Bishop Lee has made concessions other bishops would not. He has allowed the churches to keep their seats in diocesan councils, even though they stopped contributing to the diocesan budget in protest. When some of the churches refused to have Bishop Lee perform confirmations in their parishes, he flew in the former archbishop of Canterbury, the Most Rev. George Carey, a conservative evangelical, to take his place. “Our Anglican tradition has always been a very large tent in which people with different theological emphases can live together,” Bishop Lee said in a telephone interview. “I’m very sorry some in these churches feel that this is no longer the case for them. It certainly is their choice and their decision. No one is forcing them to do this.” The Diocese of Virginia is also home to the Rev. Martyn Minns, a main organizer in the global effort by conservative Anglicans to ostracize the Episcopal Church. Mr. Minns is the priest in charge of Truro Church, the second of the two historic Virginia parishes now voting on secession. Anglican rules and traditions prohibit bishops from crossing geographical boundaries to take control of churches or priests not in their territory. So Archbishop Akinola and his American allies have tried to bypass that by establishing a branch of the Nigerian church in the United States, the Convocation of Anglicans in North America. Archbishop Akinola has appointed Mr. Minns as his key “missionary bishop” to spread the gospel to Americans on his behalf. Mr. Minns and other advocates of secession have suggested to the voters that the convocation arrangement has the blessing of the Anglican hierarchy. But on Friday, the Anglican Communion office in London issued a terse statement saying the convocation had not been granted “any official status within the communion’s structures, nor has the archbishop of Canterbury indicated any support for its establishment.” The voting in Virginia, however, was already well under way, with ballot boxes open for a week starting last Sunday. Church leaders say they need 70 percent of the voters to approve the secession for it to take effect. If the vote is to secede, the churches and the diocese will fight to keep ownership of Truro Church, in Fairfax, and The Falls Church, in Falls Church, Va., a city named for the church. Henry D. W. Burt, a member of the standing committee of the Virginia Diocese, grew up in The Falls Church and recently urged members not to secede. He said in an interview: “We’re not talking about Class A office space in Arlington, Va. We’re talking about sacred ground.” Neither side says it wants to go to court over control of the church property, but both say the law is on their side. At one of the four Virginia parishes that has already voted to secede, All Saints Church in Dale City, the tally was 402 to 6. But that church had already negotiated a settlement to rent its property from the diocese for $1 each year until it builds another church. The presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, Katharine Jefferts Schori, said in an e-mail response to a request for an interview that such splits reflect a polarized society, as well as the “anxiety” and “discomfort” that many people feel when they are asked to live with diversity. “The quick fix embraced in drawing lines or in departing is not going to be an ultimate solution for our discomfort,” she said. Soon, Bishop Jefferts Schori herself will become the issue. Archbishop Akinola and some other leaders of provinces in developing countries have said they will boycott their primates’ meeting in Tanzania in February unless the archbishop of Canterbury sends a second representative for the American conservatives. “It’s a huge amount of mess,” said the Rev. Dr. Kendall Harmon, canon theologian of the Diocese of South Carolina, who is aligned with the conservatives. “As these two sides fight, a lot of people in the middle of the Episcopal Church are exhausted and trying to hide, and you can’t. When you’re in a family and the two sides are fighting, it affects everybody.” |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| Mark | Dec 17 2006, 06:34 AM Post #2 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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What a complete waste of time this "religion thing". |
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___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
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| Jolly | Dec 17 2006, 06:44 AM Post #3 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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The Episcopalians went a bridge too far with the ordination of an outwardly gay bishop. When a church member can sit in the pew, read a few lines of a Pauline letter and start scratching his head at the direct disobedience, you've lost your congregation. Tolerance is one thing, promotion and elevation of sin within the church is quite another. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Mark | Dec 17 2006, 06:45 AM Post #4 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Will we ever get beyond this ? |
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___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
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| Jolly | Dec 17 2006, 07:27 AM Post #5 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Actually, we're doin' pretty good. So far, not one shot fired in anger. Just an agreement to disagree. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| jon-nyc | Dec 17 2006, 08:48 AM Post #6 |
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Cheers
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The Episcopal church in NY is quite liberal socially (not to mention very wealthy). |
| In my defense, I was left unsupervised. | |
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| George K | Dec 17 2006, 09:12 AM Post #7 |
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Finally
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I got married (the first time) in an Episcopal Church in Locust Valley, New York. Wealthy? Whoa! Jon gets the award for the understatement of the day! Second time: Lutheran, |
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| Dewey | Dec 17 2006, 10:11 AM Post #8 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Meanwhile, back in the Conservative synagogue... Leaders permit gay rabbis, unions Conservative Jews give congregations basis for decision By Liz F. Kay Baltimore Sun reporter Originally published December 7, 2006 Leaders of Judaism's Conservative Movement approved interpretations of Jewish law yesterday that would permit same-sex commitment ceremonies and the ordination of openly gay and lesbian rabbis. The historic decision offers wide latitude for Conservative rabbis, most of whom are in North America, to make individual choices for their congregations about whether to bless gay relationships. The two Conservative rabbinical colleges within the United States already have begun discussing the admission of openly gay candidates. "Gays and lesbians will feel more at home in the Conservative Movement than they have been," said Rabbi Alvin Berkun, president of the Rabbinical Assembly, an international organization of more than 1,600 Conservative rabbis. More than 2 million people worldwide are affiliated with the Conservative Jewish movement. Although four of the 25 rabbis who serve on the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards resigned yesterday over the vote to support gay and lesbian rabbis and the same-sex ceremonies, leaders and observers remain optimistic that the action will not cause a schism. "My hope is that today's decision will not splinter the movement," Berkun said. He described the movement as "a big tent" with room for people on the left and people on the right. Reform Judaism, the most widely practiced within the United States, accepts gay clergy. Reconstructionist Judaism, a smaller branch, has gay rabbis and sanctions gay relationships. Orthodox Jews maintain that homosexual behavior is wrong. Yesterday's decision does not require rabbis to perform commitment ceremonies for same-sex couples. Rather, because rabbis serve as mara d'atra, or spiritual leaders of their individual communities, they are expected to draw conclusions from the committee's opinions to make decisions for their congregations. In all, the committee considered five position papers on gays and lesbians this week - and approved ones with sharply conflicting conclusions. Fourteen members accepted a paper upholding a 1992 position opposing ordination of homosexuals and rejecting same-sex commitment ceremonies. Yet in another vote, 14 members endorsed a paper co-written by Rabbi Avram Reisner, an adjunct professor at Baltimore Hebrew University, which affirms the biblical prohibitions against anal sex while permitting openly gay rabbis and endorsing commitment ceremonies for monogamous couples. The rabbis did not endorse gay marriage. The opinions essentially give Conservative rabbis formal discretion for whatever approach they want to take in their congregations regarding same-sex commitment ceremonies - though they could risk of running afoul of their members' attitudes on the subject. "What we've got here is the moderate Conservative movement remaining moderate," said Rela Mintz Geffen, a sociologist and Baltimore Hebrew University president. "You have a clear commitment to the letter of the biblical law here while making it possible to evolve," said Geffen, co-author of The Conservative Movement in Judaism: Dilemmas and Opportunities. "It seems to me that they were careful, that they were thoughtful. There's kind of an attempt at balance here to be fair but not trendy." To be sure, yesterday's decision seems sure to offend some congregations - such as those in Toronto that have remained non-egalitarian, maintaining separate seating for women and men and prohibiting women from participating in reading from and carrying the Torah during services. "I hope we're able to work with those congregations to remind them of our stance on pluralism," said Raymond B. Goldstein of Rochester, Minn., international president of the United Synagogue for Conservative Judaism, which represents more than 750 congregations. "We have to prevent this from becoming a litmus test for gay rabbis, as they start applying for jobs," he said. The debate about the status of gays and lesbians in Conservative Judaism mirrors heated discussions taking place among other American religious groups, as well as in the secular world. The Maryland Court of Appeals heard arguments earlier this week about the constitutionality of the state limiting marriage to between a man and a woman. A decision has not yet been released. Rabbis at Beth El Congregation in Pikesville, which held a commitment ceremony in 2003, praised the committee's decision. "Formally, this concludes a bitter chapter that is now history," said Mark Loeb, Beth El's senior rabbi. He said the decision and the civil process that led to it should serve as an example for Protestant faiths heatedly debating the topic themselves. "It's validating for our movement that gay and lesbian men and women can serve the Jewish people in every way that everyone else can," Loeb said. "We can say that we're open, we're pluralistic, we're accepting, and at the same time we're committed to traditional practice and service structure," said Rabbi Steven Schwartz of Beth El. At Beth Israel in Owings Mills, Rabbi Jay R. Goldstein said the decisions are an opportunity, "an impetus for us to again re-explore what the vision and challenges are for the future of the movement." He hoped the decisions would spark conversation about what inclusion means for the community - not just for gay and lesbian Jews, but also in such areas as reaching out to members who have married non-Jews. Members of area congregations will gather in January to discuss this topic with scholars and others, he said. Elizabeth Richman, a third-year rabbinical student at Jewish Theological Seminary in New York and a member of Keshet, a group of seminary staff and students in favor of gay rights, said the organization is looking forward to working with the seminary's chancellor-elect, Arnold Eisen, "on helping to fulfill our mutual vision on making JTS a school open to everyone." "We're pleased because we think it's a very large step forward," said Richman, 32. However, "we think there's still work to be done for full equality." |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| Jolly | Dec 17 2006, 02:07 PM Post #9 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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As did the guys in Sodom and Gomorra. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 17 2006, 02:15 PM Post #10 |
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MAMIL
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It's always nice to see the church getting worked up about what's really important in life. Millions starve to death in Africa? No problem, Jesus said the poor are always with us, after all, I'm sure God won't mind our enormously expensive cathedrals and weddings. It's their own fault, after all. A gay Bishop? Abomination!!! You're going to hell!!!!!! Meanwhile, back on the head of the pin..... |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| TomK | Dec 17 2006, 02:20 PM Post #11 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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I give a lot of money here: (In fact this place is the beneficiary of my and my wife's wills.) Catholic Charities And I'm pretty pleased how well it's spent. |
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| AlbertaCrude | Dec 17 2006, 02:51 PM Post #12 |
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Bull-Carp
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I particularly enjoyed the part in the S & G myth, when the horny citizens of the two doomed cities rapped on Lot's door so they could sodomize the two angels. Lot, being the hospitable and righteous man he was refused to turn out the angels but showed a wilingness instead to let the mob gang rape his two virgin daughters. Luckily for the girls the two angels conjured some divine intervention and blinded the mob and thus put an end to papa's barter deal. The girls however did get even with the old man shortly thereafter when he got drunk.... X rated absolute nonsense that Bible. :wacko: |
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| Horace | Dec 17 2006, 02:55 PM Post #13 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Hey Tom, if it's not too personal, what's your feelings on how much you'll give of your estate to charity upon your and your wife's passing vs how much you'll pass on to your kids? |
| As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good? | |
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| Daniel\ | Dec 17 2006, 11:01 PM Post #14 |
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Fulla-Carp
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura |
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| OperaTenor | Dec 17 2006, 11:19 PM Post #15 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Being Episcopalian, I find the comments interesting and amusing. In following the lead of the media, it seems to me people like to paint this situation in more absolutist frames than it really is. The main of the Episcopal church has decided to err on the side of tolerance and allow the ordination of openly gay bishops. However, that is not to say they have the market cornered on the moral high ground on the issue. From my understanding of the decision, it is to continue the trend of the Episcopal church to accept all comers, much as we believe Christ did in His life on Earth - He turned no one away who was of contrite heart. |
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| ivorythumper | Dec 17 2006, 11:26 PM Post #16 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Does "contrite of heart" really mean anything today? Isn't that based on some moldy old idea of "sin", which is in turn based on some antiquated notion of "displeasing God" or such? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Daniel\ | Dec 17 2006, 11:29 PM Post #17 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Edit |
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| OperaTenor | Dec 17 2006, 11:34 PM Post #18 |
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Pisa-Carp
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I guess it depends on who you ask. In my circles, sin isn't a moldy old idea at all. For any us of who take communion, we should be facing the concept every time we partake.I guess I'm naive like the swayback horse("What load?"). Perhaps I've liked to think I've tried to live my life in terms of pleasing God for so long I haven't considered an alternate perspective. Food for thought, though... |
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| Daniel\ | Dec 18 2006, 12:12 AM Post #19 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Edit |
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| Jolly | Dec 18 2006, 08:12 AM Post #20 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Certainly the Church should take all comers. But the question is whether the Church should promote the sin, and place these people in offices of leadership? |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 18 2006, 08:15 AM Post #21 |
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MAMIL
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Our old C of E vicar was caught over-charging for funerals. Allegedly. He was quietly moved on to another unsuspecting parish. Personally, I'd rather have a gay bishop any day of the week. Nothing like that would ever happen nowadays, of course. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| AlbertaCrude | Dec 18 2006, 08:43 AM Post #22 |
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Bull-Carp
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How is this a concern to you? Is it not entirely an internal matter for Anglicans to sort out amongst themselves? Just because the Anglican policy of inclusion is displeasing (read: sinful) to more conservative and fundamentalist Christian groups, does not make it any more sinful than the practice of televangleism and other means of commodifying relgion into commerical business. Sure that Paul guy Christians go on about, ranted on against sexuality, but seems to me Jesus Christ was more against the usurers and greedy materialists corrupting the world than a few homosexuals. |
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| LadyElton | Dec 18 2006, 09:00 AM Post #23 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I think the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was inhospitality, not homosexuality. Gang rape is not a straight or gay thing, it is a power thing. Besides what kind of father offers his daughters up to be raped? Then the daughters get their dad drunk to have their way with him? Sounds like something from Jerry Springer - Daughters who boinked their drunk dad over being over being offered to gang of horny neighbours. Sounds like they could use serious therapy. The whole incest thing, not to mention PTSD from having their home destroyed by fire and brimestone and mom turning into a pillar of salt. |
| Hilary aka LadyElton | |
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| Jolly | Dec 18 2006, 09:00 AM Post #24 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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I'm wracking my brain, but I can think of no instance in which Jesus advocated placing sinful people in leadership of the Church. Peter and Paul most certainly did not. Secondly, commercialism in the church I would also consider sinful, but it is much harder to define the line between success in televangelizing and commercialism. Much of that depends on motive, and honesty. Just because a church is large and successful does not mean it is sinful, and the converse is also true. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| John D'Oh | Dec 18 2006, 09:09 AM Post #25 |
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MAMIL
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Jesus never directly addressed homosexuality or the idea of women priests, did he? Not at least as far as I am aware. I know Paul expounded at some length on what he believed Jesus thought, but I don't think he ever met the man. Maybe he was wrong? He was only human, after all. If I ever meet someone who isn't a sinner, I'll recommend he take Holy Orders. I hope to God he isn't a gay woman. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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In my circles, sin isn't a moldy old idea at all. For any us of who take communion, we should be facing the concept every time we partake.
11:33 AM Jul 11