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Christmas 2006: Is Jesus still a Palestinian?; bethlehem notes....
Topic Started: Dec 13 2006, 02:41 AM (1,596 Views)
JBryan
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I am the grey one
Quote:
 
And where the heck do you think the Israeli's came from? How many of them were BORN in Israel?

Do you think bach was born there, or Radu? Would you consider them Israelis? If so then why not consider the Arabs that moved there as Palestinians?


The problem with your logic, Tom, is that the Palestinians who movbed there were not esvicted by the Israelis but left on their own at the urging of the Arab nations who were prepearing to go to war with Israel. The theory was that as soon as the israelis got their asses kicked the Palestinians could move back in and take over. Didn't quite work out that way. the Palestinians gambled and lost. Now they want the whole world to forget about all that and consider them to be the only legitimate occupants of that strip of land. You don't seem to have bought into it but in your attempts to adopt a "pox on both their houses" equivalency you willfully overlook the fact that there is only one party in this dispute that is truly at fault (hint: not the Israelis) and you give short shrift to justice. The only one victimizing the Palestinians is their own corrupt leadership and the rest of the Muslim world.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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jon-nyc
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JBryan
Dec 14 2006, 08:22 AM
Quote:
 
And where the heck do you think the Israeli's came from? How many of them were BORN in Israel?

Do you think bach was born there, or Radu? Would you consider them Israelis? If so then why not consider the Arabs that moved there as Palestinians?


The problem with your logic, Tom, is that the Palestinians who movbed there were not esvicted by the Israelis but left on their own at the urging of the Arab nations who were prepearing to go to war with Israel. The theory was that as soon as the israelis got their asses kicked the Palestinians could move back in and take over. Didn't quite work out that way. the Palestinians gambled and lost. Now they want the whole world to forget about all that and consider them to be the only legitimate occupants of that strip of land. You don't seem to have bought into it but in your attempts to adopt a "pox on both their houses" equivalency you willfully overlook the fact that there is only one party in this dispute that is truly at fault (hint: not the Israelis) and you give short shrift to justice. The only one victimizing the Palestinians is their own corrupt leadership and the rest of the Muslim world.

Thats true in some cases, but systematic ethnic cleansing by Israeli forces in 1948 has also been well documented.



Not sure how much it matters though. Whether a civilian is forced to leave his home at gunpoint, or leaves to escape war and then is prevented from returning at gunpoint, seems pretty much the same thing to me.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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JBryan
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There is a difference when you leave to avoid a war that is being waged against the country in which you live by countries friendly to you. There were those who chose to remain and lost nothing.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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David Burton
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TomK
Dec 14 2006, 04:33 AM
David Burton
Dec 14 2006, 02:09 AM
Most of the “Palestinians” moved there from other parts of the Arab world

And where the heck do you think the Israeli's came from? How many of them were BORN in Israel?

Do you think bach was born there, or Radu? Would you consider them Israelis? If so then why not consider the Arabs that moved there as Palestinians?

After careful reflection, I’ve decided that I’ve said quite enough on this matter already and prefer not to answer.
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AlbertaCrude
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Tom, it's kind of you to volunteer to help Quirt with his digging. Are you sure you really want to though? :wave2:
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jon-nyc
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JBryan
Dec 14 2006, 08:46 AM
There is a difference when you leave to avoid a war that is being waged against the country in which you live by countries friendly to you. There were those who chose to remain and lost nothing.

Indeed there were, and there are also those who tried to stay but were forcibly removed at gunpoint.


Regarding your first point, I find it somewhat amoral. It would seem to me that civilians should be able to flee a war zone without risking the homes that their families were in for, in some case, 900 years.

In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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JBryan
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Fleeing a war zone into the protection of...


...the enemy.


Yeah, should be no jeopardy to property rights there.

As far as the other point you make about being removed at gunpoint I am not aware of that having happended without cause. I also doubt there were many 900 year old households in what was mostly unpopulated land prior to '48.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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jon-nyc
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Ok, JB. I can accept that you and I have a different set of ethics when it comes to the treatment of civilians in war. But I'm curious - do you apply that logic to other conflicts or do you reserve it only for Palestinians?

Lets take Iraq, for example. There's no doubt that when the bombing started many civilians fled their homes, say for example if they lived in a city near a government building or another target. Should they lose their homes?


Re forcible removal of Arabs, frankly my friend if you're unaware of it you simply haven't done much reading on the subject. While there's no doubt some were removed because they represented a military threat, in many cases the only 'cause' was that they were the wrong race.


Re 900 years, I'll remind you that Yafo wasn't always a cute little neighborhood in southern Tel Aviv.
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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JBryan
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jon-nyc
Dec 14 2006, 01:17 PM
Lets take Iraq, for example. There's no doubt that when the bombing started many civilians fled their homes, say for example if they lived in a city near a government building or another target. Should they lose their homes?





Not an analogous situation. Iraq lost. If the Arabs had won against the Israelis there would have been no question about "right of return". If our country is attacked by a foreign power and you seek refuge wiithin their borders I will be equally unsympathetic to your "right of return".

Quote:
 
Re forcible removal of Arabs, frankly my friend if you're unaware of it you simply haven't done much reading on the subject.  While there's no doubt some were removed because they represented a military threat, in many cases the only 'cause' was that they were the wrong race.


I have never seen any evidence that people were forcibly removed without some cause (not just race). We may quarrel over the legitimacy of that cause but, as far as I have seem, it has always been a matter of internal security. There may have been anomalies where corruption or other unethical behavior was involved but that would not establish a pattern of ethnic cleansing.

Quote:
 
Re 900 years, I'll remind you that Yafo wasn't always a cute little neighborhood in southern Tel Aviv.


I am sure there were small isolated settlements in the region but they were few and far between and most of the people who left were leaving newly established settlements.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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jon-nyc
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Quote:
 
Not an analogous situation. Iraq lost. If the Arabs had won against the Israelis there would have been no question about "right of return". If our country is attacked by a foreign power and you seek refuge wiithin their borders I will be equally unsympathetic to your "right of return".


This implies that you believe that the refugees lived in Israel proper prior to the war, therefore those who lost their homes were traitors to their nation. Even if I were to grant you that Arabs in the jewish partition owed loyalty to a unilaterally-declared Jewish state, a goodly number of the refugees from '48 would have come from the Arab partition that was absorbed by the Israelis in the war. If you think about it the 1947 UN partition, however imperfectly, tried to follow demographics on the ground. Most of the Palestinians (about 2/3 of total) lived in the Arab partition or in International areas. Lets put aside for now those who were expelled by the IDF or terrorized by the LHI or the Irgun. Do you really believe that civilians who did not live in Israel who left their homes to seek safety deserved to be forcibly prevented from returning when the fighting ended? (And if so, why just them and why not the Iraqis from my earlier analogy?)


Quote:
 
I have never seen any evidence that people were forcibly removed without some cause (not just race).


I certainly believe you. What reading have you done on the subject?
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TomK
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The jist of this discussion is that, JBryan--you seem to have a "particular" attitude and opinion of what's fair and unfair in a time of war. (Who won, who lost, what they were doing, what they were thinking.) All fine, but the Palestinians deserve better consideration than they've gotten. They are there and they have NOWHERE else to go they are young and under educated and VASTLY under employed.

What's lacking in your approach is the same thing that's been lacking in US and Israeli policy lo these last 30 years--a pragmatic approach to solve the problem rather than a continued effort to forestall the inevitable.
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JBryan
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jon-nyc
Dec 14 2006, 05:13 PM
This implies that you believe that the refugees lived in Israel proper prior to the war, therefore those who lost their homes were traitors to their nation. If you think about it the 1947 UN partition, however imperfectly, tried to follow demographics on the ground.


Quote:
 
I have never seen any evidence that people were forcibly removed without some cause (not just race).


I certainly believe you. What reading have you done on the subject?

It is not about treason. It is about security. In my analogy with you I would not let you return because you had shown yourself to be in league with the enemy and, hence, a security risk.

Quote:
 
Even if I were to grant you that Arabs in the jewish partition owed loyalty to a unilaterally-declared Jewish state, a goodly number of the refugees from '48 would have come from the Arab partition that was absorbed by the Israelis in the war. 


They would not be allowed to return for the same reason I gave above. It has nothing to do with what the area had been. It was, at that point, within the borders of Israel.

Quote:
 
Do you really believe that civilians who did not live in Israel who left their homes to seek safety deserved to be forcibly prevented from returning when the fighting ended?


Yes, I do. Once you have repelled an invasion force you do not turn around and let those who took refuge with the invaders inside your borders. That sort of defeats the purpose of driving out the enemy to begin with. The Israelis had no reason to believe that these Arabs would not continue to want Israel wiped off the map notwithstanding wherever they may have lived before the invasion.

Quote:
 
(And if so, why just them and why not the Iraqis from my earlier analogy?)


Your analogy simply does not work. It would only be a parallel to the Arab-Israeli situation if the Arabs had overrun Israel as we had Iraq.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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JBryan
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TomK
Dec 14 2006, 06:30 PM
The jist of this discussion is that, JBryan--you seem to have a "particular" attitude and opinion of what's fair and unfair in a time of war.  (Who won, who lost, what they were doing, what they were thinking.)  All fine, but the Palestinians deserve better consideration than they've gotten.  They are there and they have NOWHERE else to go they are young and under educated and VASTLY under employed.

I agree wholeheartedly that the Palestinians deserve better. I believe the only reason they elected Hamas was because Fatah was so obviously corrupt an had failed them before. I would like to see the Palestinians acieve all those things you mentioned but they have to start with the basic concept that Israel is there to stay and accept that fact. Only then can they really begin to solve their problems.

Quote:
 
What's lacking in your approach is the same thing that's been lacking in US and Israeli policy lo these last 30 years--a pragmatic approach to solve the problem rather than a continued effort to forestall the inevitable.


What is lacking in your approach is a willingness to see the cold hard facts of the situation. It may seem "pragmatic" to you to wipe the slate clean and pretend that all that has transpired never happened or, worse, throw up your hands and declare both equally at fault. However, this only leads to trying that which has been tried countless times before expecting different results.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Jeffrey
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jon - Amid all your unsupported and quite grotesque talk of "cleansing" (last time you were pressed to give evidence of this, you came up with a clear case of military necessity defending a key supply line), you forget the main reason Israel won. They had better morale because they were defending their homes and families. They did not have an advantage in numbers or weaponry. They were both outnumbered and outgunned. They had better morale because the Arabs were invaders on Jewish areas, and they knew it. They had homes to go home to, and the Jews did not. Thus the Jews fought harder and won. I think this pretty much sums up the War of Independence. I realize that the Arabs regard it as a "catastrophe" that they did not kill all the Jews as they wished, but there is no reason for us to support them in this desire at this late date, or to levy idiotic and suicidal double standards in war time on Israel alone. If you wish to discuss ethnic cleansing, perhaps you could look up the history of the Jews of Hebron, kicked out of a city they lived in for 2500 years, during an Arab pogrom in the 1930s.
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TomK
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Jeffrey
Dec 14 2006, 11:30 PM
They had better morale because they were defending their homes and families. They did not have an advantage in numbers or weaponry. They were both outnumbered and outgunned. They had better morale because the Arabs were invaders on Jewish areas, and they knew it. They had homes to go home to, and the Jews did not. Thus the Jews fought harder and won.

Times have changed. Take away Israel's American guns and jets and man to man the Palestinians now have the determination advantage. they've been doing just fine with their rock against the Israeli tanks. Look at bach's handwringing (in another thread) at his daughter's enlistment (and admittedly I'd do the same if it were my daughter)--Palestinians send their kids off to die for their people with a smile and a kiss.

Maybe I'm wrong--but let's take away America's arms and let the victor take the spoils. Time for America to withdraw and let the drama of the Middle east take its natural course.

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JBryan
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Will Iran and Syria and Saudi Arabia withdraw their support of the Palestinians?
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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jon-nyc
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Jeffrey
Dec 14 2006, 10:30 PM
jon - Amid all your unsupported and quite grotesque talk of "cleansing" (last time you were pressed to give evidence of this, you came up with a clear case of military necessity defending a key supply line), you forget the main reason Israel won.  They had better morale because they were defending their homes and families.  They did not have an advantage in numbers or weaponry.  They were both outnumbered and outgunned.  They had better morale because the Arabs were invaders on Jewish areas, and they knew it.  They had homes to go home to, and the Jews did not.  Thus the Jews fought harder and won.  I think this pretty much sums up the War of Independence.  I realize that the Arabs regard it as a "catastrophe" that they did not kill all the Jews as they wished, but there is no reason for us to support them in this desire at this late date, or to levy idiotic and suicidal double standards in war time on Israel alone.  If you wish to discuss ethnic cleansing, perhaps you could look up the history of the Jews of Hebron, kicked out of a city they lived in for 2500 years, during an Arab pogrom in the 1930s.

Jeffrey, there is no ethnic cleansing during war that you (or Ben-Gurion) wouldn't justify as military necessity. If any enemy behind the lines is a threat to supply, then when isn't ethnic cleasning justified?

Rabin wrote in his memoirs that the forcible eviction of 50,000 civilians done at the order of Ben-Gurion was something that had bothered him since 1948. And he was even more concerned about the effect of the action on his men. As he told David Shipler of the New York Times, some 30 years after the event:

"Great Suffering was inflicted upon the men taking part in the eviction action. [They] included youth-movement graduates who had been inculcated with values such as international brotherhood and humaneness. The eviction action went beyond the concepts they were used to. There were some fellows who refused to take part. . . Prolonged propaganda activities were required after the action . . . to explain why we were obliged to undertake such a harsh and cruel action."

But Lydda and Ramla wasn't the only incident. The principal cause of the mass flight of Arab civilians of April-May 1948 was Jewish militatry attack, or fear of Jewish military attack. I would ask you to study the mass exodus from Yafo, Haifa, Tiberias, or Safad. Compare these to the timing of attacks on those cities by Jewish forces.


Frankly I don't know why you would spend energy arguing this point. Certainly you wouldn't deny that Ben Gurion was a supporter of ethnic cleansing (he called it 'compulsory transfer'). Nor would you deny that in 1948 he was in a position to put it into effect. You are usually such a realist in your political views, I don't know why in this case you choose to get sentimental.



As for your tirade about what I "forgot", can I ask where this is coming from? I was having a very specific discussion with JB over the origins of the refugee crisis. What does this have to do with morale, troop numbers, initiative, or reasons for winning or losing a war? Why do you think I would be in disagreement with any of this?

As for ethnic cleansing of Jews, its certainly has a longer history than just Hebron in the 30s. But again I don't know why you bring this up. At issue in this thread wasn't who's worse, the Jews or the Arabs, or who's been ethnically cleansed the most (Jews win, hands down). Rather, JB said that the Arabs left on their own. I simply interjected to say that was true only in some cases. (mainly with the upper- and upper-middle class Arabs from the cities who were in a position to move, usually to Cairo, Amman, or Beirut).
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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jon-nyc
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JBryan
Dec 14 2006, 09:56 PM
Your analogy simply does not work. It would only be a parallel to the Arab-Israeli situation if the Arabs had overrun Israel as we had Iraq.

I still don't get whats wrong with the analogy. The Israeli's overran Arab areas, forced out their inhabitants and/or refused to allow those who left on their own to return.

In my analogy I asked about Iraqis that fleed American invasion - should they also be prevented from returning? (or at least would it be moral to prevent their returning?)

In both cases you have a victorious power who invaded land it did not previously occupy. OK, so the Israeli's later annexed the territory and the Americans didn't. Is that really the difference in your mind?
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jon-nyc
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JBryan
Dec 14 2006, 02:01 PM
If the Arabs had won against the Israelis there would have been no question about "right of return". If our country is attacked by a foreign power and you seek refuge wiithin their borders I will be equally unsympathetic to your "right of return".

Lest I be misunderstood, I do not support right of return for Palestinian refugees, at least not in large numbers, since that would mean the end of Israel.

But we should recognize that as the lesser of two evils and not fool ourselves into thinking that the refugees deserved their fate or somehow brought it on themselves.
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phykell
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TomK
Dec 15 2006, 04:20 AM
Maybe I'm wrong--but let's take away America's arms and let the victor take the spoils. Time for America to withdraw and let the drama of the Middle east take its natural course.

Tom, I'm curious. Referring back to your recent comments about Eire and Northern Ireland and how you believe in unification and "setting your people free", do you not see any inconsistency with your attitude towards Israel and Palestine? I recall that you suggested that the non-Catholics should leave Northern Ireland (despite having been born there). Do you not think the Palestinians should do the same?
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it's animals are treated. - Ghandhi

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
apropos jimmy carters book,

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnews/20061215/ts...sservicetopeace
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
bachophile
Dec 15 2006, 11:26 AM

Some more balanced reviews of Carter's book:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearc...=0743285026&z=y

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/11/19/175527/07

http://www.buzzflash.com/store/reviews/403

http://www.bookpage.com/0612bp/nonfiction/...tine_peace.html

(bach, you have to admit some guy named "David Makovsky" may not be quite even handed as we would hope in his review. ;))
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
You have to admit, Tom, that your position might need some careful reevaluation when you find yourself defending "Jummah" Carter.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
phykell
Dec 15 2006, 05:27 AM
Tom, I'm curious. Referring back to your recent comments about Eire and Northern Ireland and how you believe in unification and "setting your people free", do you not see any inconsistency with your attitude towards Israel and Palestine? I recall that you suggested that the non-Catholics should leave Northern Ireland (despite having been born there). Do you not think the Palestinians should do the same?

The situations are not analogous. Ireland is an occupied island. It has been occupied by the British for centuries, I feel the Protestants could leave if they wanted to keep their loyalty to the British Crown if and when the British leave Ireland--but I think it would be far better if they stayed and worked together for a united Ireland.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
JBryan
Dec 15 2006, 02:43 PM
You have to admit, Tom, that your position might need some careful reevaluation when you find yourself defending "Jummah" Carter.

...or any time you call a link to dailykos.com "more balanced." :lol:
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

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