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Christmas 2006: Is Jesus still a Palestinian?; bethlehem notes....
Topic Started: Dec 13 2006, 02:41 AM (1,593 Views)
bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
Christmas 2006: Is Jesus still a Palestinian?

By Bradley Burston

If you believe in Christmas, Bethlehem may be no place for you.

The Little Town, since antiquity an emotional world capital of Christianity, is steadily becoming a city without Christians.

The exodus of Bethlehem's Christian Palestinians, spurred by Israel's military occupation and settlement policies, the violence and upheaval of the intifada, as well as beckoning opportunities in the Americas and elsewhere, has left a town that was 80 percent Christian in 1948, to one that is now 85 percent Muslim.

The process was already well on its way a decade ago when Yasser Arafat chose Bethlehem to launch a new Christmas tradition.

The IDF had just handed the city over to Palestinian rule under the Oslo agreements. Arafat, speaking to thousands at a rally at the Church of the Nativity, declared, "This is the birthplace of our Lord the Messiah, the Palestinian."

"This is the holy city, the city of the Palestinian Lord."

In a Holy Land where history and analogy are often inseparable, the casting of Arafat's Nativity play was clear. Not only was Jesus a Palestinian, the Palestinians as a people were Jesus.

They personified Jesus as long-suffering and pure of intention, persecuted and oppressed with unspeakable cruelty and state-of-the-art weaponry by an occupying invader who had defiled the Holy Land with heathen, foreign beliefs.

"Jesus was a refugee and lived under occupation," Dr. Naim Ateek, a canon at St. George's Anglican Cathedral in Jerusalem, said in 1999, as the Holy Land prepared to celebrate the millenium of Jesus's birth.

In the Nativity pageant of Jesus as Palestinian, IDF paratroopers portrayed the Roman Legion, Israel's government took the part of expansionist, heartless Imperial Rome, and hardline settlers and rightists played the Jews who refused to recognize the godliness of Jesus' message.

In those days, it was much easier to accept that Christian Palestinians were seen by Muslims are brothers and sisters in common cause. Arafat, after all, had married into a prominent Christian family. The sense was fostered, also, by declarations of Arafat's Fatah, then in power, which formally foresaw a secular Palestinian state, multi-religious in character.

Moreover, when Arafat spoke publicly of going to Jerusalem and flying the Palestinian flag, he often stated that he would fly it "from the churches and from the mosques," placing the churches first.

But that was then.

Then came the Al Aqsa uprising - pointedly named for a mosque - coupled with a rising tide of Islamization the world over. For Bethlehem, all bets were suddenly off. Young Fatah gunmen took on the religious fundamentalism and the maximalist ideology of their Hamas and Islamic Jihad compatriots.

As Haaretz commentator Danny Rubinstein has noted, an expression that has gained currency in the Palestinian street is "After Shabbat comes Sunday," meaning, Rubinstein says "'After we finish with the people of the Sabbath [the Jews], those who revere the seventh day, we'll begin with the people of Sunday.' I have heard this from Christians, who said this saying was hurled at them in anger during a row."

This year, a new station has been added to the Via Dolorosa that Bethlehem's Christians have learned to trod.

People used to know and love Bethlehem as the West Bank city that belonged to the world. As of this year, it belongs to Hamas.

In gaining control of the Palestinian Authority, Hamas has been forced to look anew at the issue of a Christian minority in a land ruled by fundamentalist Muslims.

The question is not an simple one for either side. In Bethlehem, the tide of Islamization has had telling effects on the literal birthplace of Christianity.

There are external signs, like the words "Islamic Jihad" sprayed in graffiti under the steeple of the city's Christmas Lutheran Church.

There are internal signs, like the reluctance of residents and officials to openly express trepidations over the Christian character of the city, and the influence that an avowedly Islamic government could have over daily life.

And there are global signs, in theory unrelated to the little town, which underscore the tension.

Hamas has bent over backwards in recent days to assure Christian residents that the government supports their right to celebrate. It has earmarked $50,000 of the little cash it has, to fund a sprucing-up campaign for the town, hard hit by the separation fence and a drastic drop in Christian pilgrims and tourists, who once flooded the city's winding streets and piazzas lined with shrines and souvenir stores.

At the same time, though, Hamas is sending high-level signals that could give a Palestinian Christian pause.

In a speech during his visit to Iran at the weekend, Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh declared in the name of the Hamas-led Palestinian government that "we are the trustful protectors of the Islamic land of Palestine."

On Sunday, Haniyeh, holding talks with Iranian Supreme Leader Seyed Ali Khamenei, derided past attempts to make a distinction between the Palestine problem and Islam. Haniyeh stressed that the Palestinian cause is "Islamic" and that Palestine is an Islamic territory.

"Therefore, no individual and government in Palestine has the right to overlook even the slightest portion of its soil," he added.

The characterization of every inch of the Holy Land being Islamic land may only add to a growing sense of unease among Christians.

"Most of the Christians here are either in the process of leaving, planning to leave or thinking of leaving," Sami Awad, executive director of the Holy Land Trust, told the Associated Press recently.

The BBC quoted a local priest as saying that the problem was not local, but global. "The whole world is polarizing around western Christianity and Islam," he said. "This is a true threat, not for me but the whole world."

"Bethlehem is the focal point. It's not because my Muslim people are threatening me. It's because the whole world is polarizing. And it scares me."

Ibrahim Shomali, a Christian restaurant owner in Bethlehem, told a reporter earlier this year that he was selling what he could before he leaves with his wife this month for Flint, Michigan.

"We Christians now feel like we are on the cross," he said.

If the Palestinian national movement has gone Islamic, perhaps the narrative, and the Nativity casting, has changed as well.

If Christianity no longer has a place in the Palestinian national narrative, perhaps Hamas has now taken on the role of the Saduccees, the hardline, ultra-devout, ultra-intolerant Jews.

For the Christians of Bethlehem, the Nativity is changing, perhaps forever. The Star has dimmed, the Wise Men are nowhere in sight, and the sense is growing that there may soon be no room at the inn.

It's Christmas 2006. Christianity's place in Palestine is as tenuous as it was in antiquity.

It's Christmas 2006. Is Jesus still a Palestinian?


"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
What a world it would be if the Palestinians really did consider Jesus their Lord and Messiah and started to follow the path he showed about living under an occupation, real or imagined. Let's see, whose Sbarro would Jesus bomb?
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Curious what you mean by 'real or imagined', Dewey, are you suggesting that the Palestinians might not really be living under occupation, but are only imagining it?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying, to the extent that they believe the mere existence of Israel is an occupation of their lands. If they were to let go of this imagined occupation, the ongoing real occupation that their actions have caused, and from which they suffer greatly, would become unnecessary overnight.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
As long as the Christian West continues their support of the Palestinians's oppressors and denies any aid to the freely elected representatives of the Palestinian people--this is the kind of thing you have to expect.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Yes, since all the nastiness that the Palestinians have engaged in has only occurred only since Hamas took control of the civil government and the West turned off the money tap. While I'm sympathetic to your underlying point, and believe it or not, the Palestinians' suffering, this argument just doesn't fly, Tom.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
Dewey
Dec 13 2006, 09:53 AM
Yes, since all the nastiness that the Palestinians have engaged in has only occurred only since Hamas took control of the civil government and the West turned off the money tap. While I'm sympathetic to your underlying point, and believe it or not, the Palestinians' suffering, this argument just doesn't fly, Tom.

Dewey,

The nastiness has been going on since the Palestinians figured out that they were being oppressed and that they could fight back. The Intifada.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Wrong. The nastiness has been going on since one minute past the creation of the state of Israel. There was some isolated nastiness before then but it was only at this moment that the entire Muslim world became united against a common enemy with the Palestinians being cynically used as pawns by their (ostensible) brother Muslims in the war.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
:leaving:
___.___
(_]===*
o 0
When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
JBryan
Dec 13 2006, 07:06 AM
Wrong. The nastiness has been going on since one minute past the creation of the state of Israel.

Correct.
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
JBryan
Dec 13 2006, 11:06 AM
Wrong. The nastiness has been going on since one minute past the creation of the state of Israel. There was some isolated nastiness before then but it was only at this moment that the entire Muslim world became united against a common enemy with the Palestinians being cynically used as pawns by their (ostensible) brother Muslims in the war.

All right, fine.

If the Israeli's didn't oppress the Palestinians for the last 35 years, then they couldn't be used as a cause celeb by the Moslem world--and maybe there wouldn't be such tension in the Middle East.

Realisticly, I can understand the way the Arabs behave and the way the Israeli behave--that's the way people are like over there. My problem is with America supporting any side either in that barbarian conflict.

The Israelis and the Arabs are just two sides of the same coin.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Your view of palestinian "oppression" is rather shallow but I suppose it has to be in order to support the equivalency argument you are trying to make.

The Palestinians, indeed the entire Muslim world, have been bent on the destruction of Israel from day one. Israeli "oppression" has been in response to aggressive terrorism and open warfare by the Palestinians who are given weapons and funding by the Saudis, Syrians, Iranians, et al.

Nothing the Israelis have ever done was not a direct response to this warfare. Have Israelis set out to exterminate Palestinians? The Palestinians do so towards the Israelis openly. Have the Palestinians ever given even the smallest concession in all of the various peace plans that have been set in motion over the years? They have yet to even strike the passage from their charter that calls for the destruction of Israel.

The Israelis have given concession upon concession only to be responded to with increased violence against them. Everything Iwsrael has done has been in defense of their very existence while the Palestinians engage in indescriminate slaughter with abandon.

Two sides of the same coin? Open your eyes.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
If you consider taking over Palestinian land and then giving a tiny piece back to them a "concession," you are right. If you consider letting 20% of the Palistinians live above the poverty line, you are right. If you consider getting the average Palestinians educational level above that of the 6th grade, you are right. Concession after concession.

We used to do that kind of thing to the Blacks here in America, and they did it to the Blacks in South Africa. Those people got their freedom--the Palestinians are next. It's only a matter of time.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Yes, Tom, they should give back all the land to the Palestinians. You make an excellent spokesman for their twisted point of view.

The Palestinian's economic and education problems are their own fault. The Israelis are not forcing them to live under dysfunctional governments that siphon off all aid money to Swiss bank accounts and to buy arms. The Israelis are not forcing them to devote all their resources to making war on Israel. All of the Palestinian's problems would go away as soon as they decide to live in peace with the Israelis and devote their efforts to building a Palestinian state that coexists peacefully with Israel.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
I think Tom wants all Israelis and Jews to live in Birobidzhan
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
AlbertaCrude
Dec 13 2006, 02:26 PM
I think Tom wants all Israelis and Jews to live in Birobidzhan

Woah,

I'm all for the State of Israel's existance. It has every right in the world to be there. I just think that people that live there (just like their neighbors the Arabs) are slimeballs.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
TomK
Dec 13 2006, 11:36 AM
AlbertaCrude
Dec 13 2006, 02:26 PM
I think Tom wants all Israelis and Jews to live in Birobidzhan

Woah,

I'm all for the State of Israel's existance. It has every right in the world to be there. I just think that people that live there (just like their neighbors the Arabs) are slimeballs.

Tom is politically correct -- he despises both sides.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Radu
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Senior Carp
And no moderator of this forum ever "moderates" Tom because he is such a nice guy....
Posted Image
------------------------------------------------------------
"Whenever I hear of culture... I release the safety-catch of my Browning!"
The modern media has made cretins out of so many people that they're not interested in reality any more, unless it's reality TV (Jean D'eaux)
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
Radu
Dec 13 2006, 02:51 PM
And no moderator of this forum ever "moderates" Tom because he is such a nice guy....


Radu--I'm not moderated because I'm expressing a political opinion. I'm not calling anyone in particular a name. I'm saying some people's politics suck, OK? This whole thread began with a slam against Palestinians--should that be moderated?

If people disagree with me--and they do--let them disagree, and we'll discuss, but to delete political discussion because some people disagree with it is Fascist behavior.

And as for me being a "nice guy": Thanks for the complement, I appreciate it.
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jon-nyc
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Cheers
Dewey
Dec 13 2006, 08:25 AM
Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying, to the extent that they believe the mere existence of Israel is an occupation of their lands. If they were to let go of this imagined occupation, the ongoing real occupation that their actions have caused, and from which they suffer greatly, would become unnecessary overnight.

So do you think a Palestinian (say a peaceful one) living in Ramallah is not really living in occupied territory?
In my defense, I was left unsupervised.
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bachophile
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
This whole thread began with a slam against Palestinians--


i try to avoid tit for tats in these threads but i do like keeping things accurate.

the thread was begun for several reasons.

to highlight the rise of islamacism in the conflict in practical terms, in this case the mass exodus of christians from bethlehem, which is poingnantly ironic and sad.

secondly the irony of arafat using jesus as a palestinian icon divorced from any jewish origin.

i just find these things heavy with meaning and sadness.

just the original slimeballs's 2 cents.

irony

"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen
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David Burton
Senior Carp
I wonder when the truth about Yasser Arafat will ever come out?
His name wasn’t really Yasser Arafat.
He was the son of an Egyptian rug merchant, not a Palestinian Arab.
He was hired and later blackmailed by the KGB.
His marriage was a farce; as he preferred little boys.
Some leader they had.

The entire confounded mess in the Middle East has VERY FAR REACHING IMPLICATIONS FOR THREE OF THE WORLD’S BIGGEST BELIEF SYSTEMS; RELIGIONS. Those who attempt to block Israeli hegemony in the area are attempting to prove God wrong. Watch it Tom! If they can prove God wrong then God obviously doesn’t exist.

The land attributed to the Palestinians was mostly uninhabited, and uninhabitable in 1948, just as the Bible described it. Most of the “Palestinians” moved there from other parts of the Arab world – TO WORK FOR THE ISRAELIS.

Those who think they know, don’t.
Those who really know, don’t talk much about it.
They’d be jeered or worse if they did.
Political correctness has more to do with avoiding violence, war or getting oneself killed than whether it covers the truth or might prevent one from getting re-elected.
It’s more like, “You want to fight?”
“No, not today.”
“OK, then today we’ll agree not to say what the real truth is.”
That’s been going on since at least 1948 in this area – with a few breaks for blood letting. It bodes well that it will continue until a final resolution is achieved.

Jesus said something remarkable in Luke 18:8
“I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly.
However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?"
Take it however you will.

AH, and whatever faith you’re persuaded in, or not as you wish,
Merry Christmas!
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
jon-nyc
Dec 13 2006, 10:47 PM
Dewey
Dec 13 2006, 08:25 AM
Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying, to the extent that they believe the mere existence of Israel is an occupation of their lands. If they were to let go of this imagined occupation, the ongoing real occupation that their actions have caused, and from which they suffer greatly, would become unnecessary overnight.

So do you think a Palestinian (say a peaceful one) living in Ramallah is not really living in occupied territory?

If you read my quote, your question would be unnecessary.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
bach old friend,

I'm not insulting you. I'm just talking politics--we all have out favorite sides on different issues and sometimes things get a bit heated. I know we disagree on some things, but I treat you personally with respect.

And the original post WAS a slam against Palestinians. Maybe you don't see it that way, so again we disagree--but that's just politics.

Have a great day. :lol:
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
David Burton
Dec 14 2006, 02:09 AM
Most of the “Palestinians” moved there from other parts of the Arab world

And where the heck do you think the Israeli's came from? How many of them were BORN in Israel?

Do you think bach was born there, or Radu? Would you consider them Israelis? If so then why not consider the Arabs that moved there as Palestinians?
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