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| Question for Kenny; ...also known as 'kenny'. | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Dec 6 2006, 09:30 PM (465 Views) | |
| garrett | Dec 6 2006, 09:30 PM Post #1 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Hey Kenny, I was just wondering if you could throw a few of your diamond/ring educational links my way. I'm trying to read up on the subject and get myself familiar with the various cuts, colors, shapes, etc. I thought I had bookmarked several of them, but I can't seem to find any of them. They're probably on my desktop computer (I'm posting this from my laptop). Unfortunately I had an accident and now half of the keys don't work. |
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| kenny | Dec 6 2006, 09:35 PM Post #2 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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http://diamonds.pricescope.com/ Click on each of the titles on the left. |
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| kenny | Dec 6 2006, 09:42 PM Post #3 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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You may want to start understanding this thing:![]() It is held over the loose diamond so the botom of it is even with the girdle (the widest part of the stone.) Then you look through it. It colors all the light entering from above the girdle pink. The best-cut diamonds will have the patterns on the left side of this chart White means light is leaking out the bottom of the stone (bad). ![]() If you care to take it further AGS Labs has developed an even more advanced one called ASET ![]() This is a MUST if you shop for anything but a round diamond. It is more complex to interpret but is really the only way to pick a good fancy cut (anything other than round) Picking a good round is easy. Just go to Whiteflash.com and buy an ACA No Branier! On par with the finest rounds in the world at a killer price! If you like the princess cut you MUST buy an AGS 0 (AGS is the best lab and 0 is the best cut grade, 1 is next best, etc.) If you like asschers, wait till Feb 2007 when AGS comes out with their cut-rating for "square emerald cuts" (they won't call them asschers, it is sort of a trade name). Stay away from EGL certificates and Mall jewelers - they sell crap (frozen spit) and are overpriced. Tiffany and Cartier is not as good as ACA and probably twice the price. |
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| garrett | Dec 6 2006, 09:48 PM Post #4 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Thank you so much for your help. Looks like I have some reading to do. ![]() EDIT: and if you want to throw any additional insight, feel free to. I know that you know what you're talking about. |
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| kenny | Dec 6 2006, 09:50 PM Post #5 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Here's where you can buy an Idealscope. Garry Holloway invented them. He's in Australia, but when you order the order is filled by a guy named David Atlas in USA. http://www.ideal-scope.com/ |
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| kenny | Dec 6 2006, 09:53 PM Post #6 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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The most important thing that determines the fire and sparkle of a diamond is CUT. Not clarity Not color. Too bad Cut is least the understood of the four Cs. 99% of diamonds are NOT cut to perform well. They are frequently too deep. They do this to retain more of the rough diamond material, so they make more money. The public is clueless - they just want a given weight. |
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| kenny | Dec 6 2006, 09:59 PM Post #7 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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If you go for a round find out its HCA score. You want it to be between 1.0 and 2.0 http://www.pricescope.com/cutadviser.asp You just plug in 4 dimensions. Depth % Table % Crown Angle Pavilion Angle The lesser reports (like IGI EGL and older GIAs) don't give you those two angles. Another reason to only go with AGS or a new GIA report. |
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| kenny | Dec 6 2006, 10:03 PM Post #8 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Idealscope Demo: http://www.ideal-scope.com/using_howto.asp If you bring one of these into a jewelry store you will be met with either 1. A blank stare 2. A contemptuous glare (they know their stone's weaknesses will be exposed.)
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| kenny | Dec 6 2006, 10:13 PM Post #9 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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You mentioned color. Prices for reds, pinks, blues can be astronomical, approaching a million bucks for a 1 carat stone. Some yellow shades like champagne and cognac can sell for less than "colorless" Watch out for artificially-induced color. You must get a GIA report that states color is of natural origin, unless of course you want artificially - induced color since they are much less expensive and can be just as beautiful. |
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| kenny | Dec 6 2006, 10:17 PM Post #10 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Never buy on eBay. (feedback shmeedback!) That said, there are several very reputable online vendors. Here are my favs (I have dealt with) in descending order: Whiteflash goodoldgold bluenile - more expensive (only their signature collection is in house) |
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| The 89th Key | Dec 6 2006, 10:30 PM Post #11 |
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Are any of you going to see Blood Diamond when it comes out in a couple days?
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| kenny | Dec 6 2006, 10:37 PM Post #12 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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No reason to. Look up Kimberly Process. We are not buying blood diamonds. More fear fear fear. But the diamond industry is bracing for the reaction of the ignint public who gets their "edumucation" from movies. |
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| kenny | Dec 6 2006, 10:39 PM Post #13 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Both goodoldgold and whiteflash have excellent tutorial/education sections. They even have videos. |
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| garrett | Dec 6 2006, 11:20 PM Post #14 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Very cool site. Curently, I'm thinking round because...well, it seems like some of the guess work will be taken out of the purchase (I'll be making sure I don't get a bad cut I guess). Probably a VS1 or VS2 for clarity. Not sure about color at this point, and weight will depend on how much I can end up spending. I think I'll make a trip to a local jewelers tomorrow and look at all the different options so I can try to narrow it down further (or completely change what I'm looking for). Thanks again for all the help. I now feel like I know a thing or two, which should help me figure out what I like the most tomorrow. |
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| kenny | Dec 7 2006, 04:41 AM Post #15 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Round - Good choice, they have the best light return and fire. They are the most popular and it is easiest to determine cut quality. VS1 and 2 are great, always eye-clean and no worries about mechanical integrity from inclusions. Try to find a jeweler with lots of loose stones. Mounted stones hide color, (which can be good but you are in education mode now). View loose stones up side down against a folded white business card under fluorescent light. View a few colors side by side. Many people can't tell the difference between stones that are 3 or 4 color grades apart (big price difference though). Others are very color sensitive and don't mind paying more for high color. Don't let any seller push you up or down in color; it is all about *your* comfort zone. Thicker stones have more color. A 1-carat H will look more yellow than a 1/2-carat H. So when you compare for color be sure the stones are similar size. Also keep in mind that a great cut will hide color when viewed from the top - they do such a great job of returning light. Some savvy buyers afford a larger stone by going with low color with a great cut but mounting it in a setting that does not allow the stone to be seen from the side. Fluorescence makes diamonds glow in strong UV (especially a black light.) It can affect the appearance of color under certain lighting conditions. Blue fluorescence can make a diamond of lower color appear less yellow in sunlight or fluorescent or halogen light, which have higher UV content. Strong fluorescence in a very few stones can result in a oily or milky appearance; for this reason it can lower the price of a stone, especially in America. Some very knowledgeable buyers seek out stones with medium blue fluorescence, but check it for milky appearance in sunlight. Yellow fluorescence lowers the value further as it is widely agreed yellowish looking diamonds less desirable. Remember lab quality. Some less-respected labs grade soft. A "G" colored stone from IGI or EGL may only get a H or I if sent to AGS or GIA. That's why retailers (and uninformed customers) like these softer labs. They will tell you GIA or AGS stones are overpriced, but you are probably getting a better or more strictly-graded stone even though they both appear to have same specs. It is very unfortunate for the consumer they all don't use the same standards. A G should be a G. The very best-cut round and princess stones get sent to AGS because they have the narrowest window for their top cut grade; softer labs don't even grade cut. GIA is more loose when it comes to cut, which of course cutters and vendors love. AGS is getting a reputation of being more of an advocate for the consumer. ![]() GIA is getting a reputation of being a friend of the industry. ![]() Oh, AGS calls its top cut grade Ideal or AGS 0. GIA calls theirs Excellent. |
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| The 89th Key | Dec 7 2006, 06:43 AM Post #16 |
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Of course there is a reason to! It's probably going to be a great film...not to mention it's about diamonds, Kenny. DIAMONDS! |
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| garrett | Dec 7 2006, 05:05 PM Post #17 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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So I went to a local jeweler today and found one similar to this:![]() The price he quoted me was $3200 for ($1300 for the ring and $1900 for the diamond). The diamond included in the quote was round cut, 1/2 carat, H color, SI1. I forgot to ask if the specs were based on AGS, GIA, or one of the other ones. |
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| kenny | Dec 7 2006, 06:28 PM Post #18 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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There is no way to tell if the diamond has superb cut or frozen spit. You must get Depth % Table % Crown angle Pavilion angle Plug them into that HCA tool. If it scores between 1.0 and 1.9 you MAY have found a good stone. There are other factors. The H SI1 are meaningless without knowing which lab wrote the report. If it is a soft lab that same stone may only get I SI2 or even J I1 from AGS. This makes price comparisons a headache. http://www.whiteflash.com/diamonds/Compare...7,151548,151553 Here are four G SI1s with AGS reports so you know they are true G SI1s. They all four got AGS's highest cut grade of AGS 0. They all four are ACAs (A Cut Above, Whiteflash's finest cut brand) so they will blow you head off with fire and look larger than a lesser cut. On their website they are all about $1500 to $1600, 300 to 400 cheaper. Plus you are getting G not H. And if you mention Pricescope when you call them and wire the funds you can get them for even less, probably 5% less. They have a 10-day refund period (which works, I've used it). You can "buy" it, carry it around to jewelry stores (they will include a "ring-clip so you can wear it) and return it if not happy. (I'll bet you'll keep it) If you return it they will deduct about $55 for the outbound shipping. Your return shipping will be about $25 for USPS registered. It is the best $80 you will ever spend on diamond education. Few people have seen such a fine cut. After you do there is no going back. |
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| kenny | Dec 7 2006, 06:53 PM Post #19 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Garrett Here is the Pricescope cut search tool It searches stones that are in house with pricescope vendors and shows what the price will be with the Pricescope discount, if any. http://www.pricescope.com/sift.aspx For a first search I entered: Cut rank Excellent to Excellent – this will only return HCAs under 2 Carat 0.5 to 0.65 Color G to H Clarity VS2 to VS2 Lab AGS H & A Include It found 21 stones from $1470 to $2242 (from 0.502 to 0.622 carat). But best of all they are all superb (blow your head off) cut with AGS reports, and it displays the HCA scores for you. Now you can vary the inputs (but never drop the cut down) and do your own search. Even if you don't buy from a pricescope vendor it is a great tool to use as a reference. BTW besides the "in house" stones all vendors can access "virtual inventory" of zillions of stones that can be located anywhere and are called in on request. But a vendor won't have Idealscope pics, ASET pics, Sarin reports or real live pics since they are not in-house. |
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| garrett | Dec 7 2006, 07:00 PM Post #20 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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I agree with you that the price seemed a little high for what I would be getting, even if the stone was AGS 0 and has a good HCA score. I'll probably end up going through whiteflash for the stone. I still am not sure about the ring itself, but that's just because there are so many options. It did help going to look at some of the options today. I had no idea what the different carat sizes looked like. Now I feel like I have some sort of approximation on what to expect. Unfortunately, I was only able to go to one jeweler today (something always comes up). Tomorrow doesn't look to good either. Maybe Saturday. |
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| garrett | Dec 7 2006, 07:05 PM Post #21 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Thanks for the Pricescope thing. I'm going to go find something to eat and then come back and play around with it. |
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| kenny | Dec 7 2006, 07:05 PM Post #22 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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BTW all 1/2 carat stones do not look exactly the same size. If it is too deep (as many are when cut for weight-retention of the rough) it will have a small diameter compared to a well-cut stone. Carat is a measurement of weight not size. Following the HCA score you will see 4 other grades Example: Ex Ex Ex VG the last one is for what is called spread Spread is diameter for weight. It is next to impossible to find 4 EXs. You want Ex Ex Ex VG |
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| kenny | Dec 7 2006, 07:08 PM Post #23 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Disclosure time. I could stand to get $100 for referring you to Whiteflash, if we we both coordinate the referral. I don't care if we do that or not, I just mention it so you don't think I'm doing this for the $$$. BTW if you go with SI1 call the vendor and make sure it is eye-clean and you both are on the same page as to what that means. VS2 and up you don't have to worry with AGS stones. |
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| kenny | Dec 7 2006, 07:16 PM Post #24 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Buying a stone from one vendor and having another vendor set it can be problematic. There is some risk of damaging a stone during setting, so many will not set a stone they didn't sell (profit from). Or they'll set it but won't cover any damage they cause. Some people buy insurance for a loose stones from Jeweler's Mutual or Chubb. |
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| garrett | Dec 7 2006, 07:30 PM Post #25 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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Yeah, I know of a couple of local vendors that I've heard can be very rude if you ask them about bringing in outside stones. I'll be avoiding them. If I go through whiteflash, I'll let you know via PM. |
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