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piano advice from a dealer; Comments??
Topic Started: Nov 28 2006, 01:16 PM (1,036 Views)
Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
George K
Nov 29 2006, 12:24 AM
Jolly
Nov 28 2006, 10:00 PM
If you like Larry's style (some do, some don't - but he DOES know the biz), you can find him at his piano board:

http://www.armleg.com/forum/viewforum.php?...forum=pianosinc

Seems she's already found the place.

Alzheimer's is a terrible, debillitating disease.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
Rosemary,
I agree with most of the above. But, IMHO, there is no problem with purchasing a piano from Costco if you've done your homework on the various pianos. When Costco sells a top brand piano such as Yamaha, they always sell through a dealer. After the purchase you receive two receipts. One from Costco and one from the local dealer. The dealer's service department (not the dealer's sales staff) will be your customer support for any issues that may arise with the piano. I sold many pianos through Costcos up and down the east coast just a few years ago. Unless things have changed drastically I see no reason why someone should not purchase a quality piano from them.

The only downfalls I can see of buying a piano through Costco:

You can't hear the piano you are playing properly in their warehouse environment and so you MUST do your homework first.

The salespeople who usually work in the Costcos travel all the time. They will not be there the next time you come in and so you MUST do your homework first.

As in any industry the salespeople are not always honest and so you must be very careful.

Sometimes when you go back to the dealer for support the dealer's sales staff will snub you. After all, they didn't make commission on the sale therefore why should they help you. They HATE Costcos because they believe the Costcos are stealing their business. This is of course ludicrous because the Costcos bring about piano awareness and plant seeds for future piano business. So if you do purchase a piano at Costco and you do need service, stay away from the dealer's salespeople and go directly to the service department or the owner. They'll treat you well.

Ethically, IMNSHO, it's wrong to spend several hours in a certain store, with a certain sales person only to buy the piano they've been pitching through Costco. This would cheat him or her out of a commission they've honestly earned.

Good luck whatever you do!

I love my 5'9 Sohmer. It'll be two year's old in January!
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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George K
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Finally
justme
Nov 29 2006, 09:40 AM
But, IMHO, there is no problem with purchasing a piano from Costco if you've done your homework on the various pianos. When Costco sells a top brand piano such as Yamaha, they always sell through a dealer. After the purchase you receive two receipts. One from Costco and when from the local dealer. The dealer's service department (not the dealer's sales staff) will be your customer support for any issues that may arise with the piano. I sold many pianos through Costcos up and down the east coast just a few years ago. Unless things have changed drastically I see no reason why someone should not purchase a quality piano from them.


(I was waiting for you!)

Thanks for the insight on buying through Costco, justme. I was wondering how that all works - you've cleared it up. The only pianos I see advertised on Costco's web page are the (shudder) Suzukis. How would one know when a (as you put it) "quality" piano is available, other than frequent trips to the store?

Thanks again.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
Hey, George!

I've cleaned up my post some. It was a mess before. I'm working and so I'm easily distracted.

Hope you had a good turkey day. :wub:
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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George K
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Finally
Thanks, sweets! Turkey was good! On vacation this week (up across the Cheddar Curtain(tm)), and Mrs. George liked the turkey so much were's going to make another one today! These are the good times, just me and the Mrs. Spending time alone, together, with nothing to do except spend time here and at my (crappy) digital piano.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
:sombrero:

back to topic: In answer to your question. Part of the sales pitch in selling the pianos at Costcos is "we have no idea when we'll be back" therefore "buying NOW is a good idea!"
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Kincaid
Nov 28 2006, 05:50 PM
Larry
Nov 28 2006, 01:20 PM
Too much bull sh!t to even wade through.

Find another dealer.

Too bad, I was looking forward to you deconstructing this stuff. That's okay - you are a busy guy.

Ok, let's deconstruct it....... :D

Quote:
 
At $10K you have a choice of a multitude of low grade pianos from China and
Indonesia. Almost everything made by Dongbei, Young Chang, Pearl River,
Sejung, Yamaha, Kawai and Samick. 5'3" and under fall into this category.

Notice how he has so subtley set the stage for what's to come - lots of choices out there at your budget, but all are "low grade" - he's told you something that's somewhat true, but more importantly he has left the impression that these "low grade" choices, so many to choose from, are your only choices available with your given budget. Goal one - plant in her mind a limit of what's available in her budget, and without actually saying bad things about them, dismiss them all as poor choices.

Quote:
 
These companies export about 50 brand names (many famous old American names like Howard, Sohmer, Weber, Kimball and Wurlitzer), but these 7 manufacturers comprise more than 98% of exports to the US. It would be almost impossible to find a piano in that price range not from one of the 7 sisters.


Nailing down "goal one" with what appears to be "educational information", true enough to not be easily seen through, but with two little "twists" added for his future benefit - the little "dig" at these pianos with the phrase "7 sisters" - then the "98%" claim. I don't know if they comprise 98% of the exports to the US or not, but I highly doubt it. But that's beside the point. His goal with this statement is to plant in your mind that 98% of the pianos coming into the US are all the same "low grade" pianos just with a bunch of different names, all from the "7 sisters", a way of subtley planting it in your mind that all 7 of them are the same... they're "sisters".... Translation: "98% of the pianos in your price range come from 7 piano factories all turning out the same junk under lots of brand names, but they're all the same old junk". How nice! He just eliminated 98% of the pianos out there from competition! Now, he just has to show you how *his* brand (one of the "lots of brand names coming from one of the 7 sisters", you know...) is *superior*!!.....

Quote:
 
Personally, I wouldn't want any of them

Lump 98% of his competition together, paint them all as low grade junk, then nail it down by pointing out he wouldn't want any of them..... now to move one toward showing you which of the "low grade Chinese pianos" he *would* have.... but first....

Quote:
 
but if you're committed to that route, I recommend Costco. COM. Their piano at <$6K is as good as any of the rest and at least you can return it if you don't like it.

Sneaky!! :D Now that he's lumped 98% of the pianos in your budget together as nothing more than junk that he wouldn't have, show her how "helpful" you're trying to be by telling her where to find one of these "all the same, 7 sisters turning out the same old low grade junk, can't tell one from the other, poor choices that he wouldn't have, for an extremely low price that he knows you can't find... in short, collectively cheapen all this "low grade just alike same as each other crap" to less than 6K. Now, all of them are worth the same, and any salesman who tries to sell you one of these "low grade all alike 7 sisters pieces of junk" for any more than the high 5K range will be ripping you off.... He has at this point in his email done the following:
1.lumped 98% of the pianos on the market together.
2.told you they are all alike, "7 sisters"...
3.painted them as all being the same "low grade junk" that he wouldn't have
4.established the market price for 98% of the pianos on the market at less than 6K.

Pretty good for a sales weasel!! Now that he's eliminated 98% of his competition, it's time to trot out the ONE BRAND coming out of these "7 sisters" that is different....unique.... wonderful..... that he *would* own!! Yeah, that's it! This one is DIFFERENT!!!....

Quote:
 
The only pianos from China I will sell are Essex.

:D

Quote:
 
Steinway has done a terrific job of controlling quality on this project,

LIE!! LIE!! Steinway hasn't controlled the quality of anything. They buy pianos from one of the "7 sisters" and have their brand name slapped on it just like everyone else. But he wants that "Steinway" association going so he can show you how "unique" *his* "low grade 7 sisters all the same junk" piano is!!

Quote:
 
and there is no quality difference between the Pearl River and Young Chang pianos. There are size and furniture differences.

I gather that he also sells Young Chang? Got to be sure not to trash them in case he can't con you into paying 2 prices for his "7 sisters" brand....he'll need that one to fall back on....

Quote:
 
You also have a choice of thousands of gray market Yamaha, Young Chang and
Kawai pianos. Please see my web page for a discussion of gray market pianos.
One of 5 pianos exported to the US from Japan and Korea is a used (gray
market) piano. If you find a 15 to 30 year old piano with one of these
names, it is probably gray market no matter what the seller tells you. I
won't sell them and I won't take them on trade. It's not that they weren't
once good pianos. It's that they are worn out and restoration doesn't make
economic sense. That's why they are gray market pianos.

Ah yes, the old "grey market" pitch.... must eliminate *those* things from competition! Why, he's even got a webpage to tell you about these evil things!....

Sheesh.... it would take an hour to go over this point alone, and it's been done so many times already I won't do it again. I'll just say that he's full of sh!t. He "won't sell them and won't take them in on trade".... yeah, right. He's taken them in on trade, and I guarantee you he's sold them - of course, *his* were "different"..... They aren't "restored", and they aren't "worn out". They *are* however, serious competition, and he's tossing the same rock at them that they all toss when they want to eliminate them from competition. All lies.

Quote:
 
Buying pianos from private parties is very tricky unless you really know your stuff. Dealers and Technicians tend to skim off the best prospects pretty quickly. Except for Steinways, I only find one or two pianos a year this way.

Yes, don't forget to eliminate private party pianos from the competition... We're almost there! We've eliminated 98% of the new pianos in your budget as just the same old low grade junk, we've valued them all at less than 6K, we've gotten rid of the used market, the private party market,...We're almost at the point where the only *possible* choice is.....

ESSEX!!!!! His brand!!!

Quote:
 
So here is my recommendation;

:D :D :D

Of course, there's only one choice left, isn't there.... well, two actually - mustn't forget the Young Chang he so conveniently left to fall back on if he can't get you to pay two prices for his first choice, *his* "low grade 7 sisters all alike junk" piano!....

Quote:
 
spend just a little more money and a whole world of really nice pianos become available.

The first and only true statement he's made - but even here is is working his game....

Quote:
 
The best deal is never at the bottom of the market (or the top)

Just in case you decide to hunt one of those under 6K pieces of junk, you know... must remind you that the best deal is somewhere else.....

Quote:
 
I strongly encourage you to consider the Baldwin I have recommended to you previously.

[Salesman]I must steer you toward a "one of a kind" deal that no one else has. Besides, it's a trade in, and it's all profit if I sell it, so my commission will be bigger. [/Salesman]

Quote:
 
A new version of this piano would cost more than twice as much and wouldn't be as good.

Yeah, right.

Quote:
 
It is far superior to everything referred to in the first paragraph.

After the hatchet job he did in the first paragraph, a 60 year old Wurlitzer spinet would be far superior to "everything referred to in the first paragraph".... But - would it be really? I don't know that. A 20 year old Baldwin that has been painted? That came out of Florida? Where lots of pianos were water damaged... needing.....refinishing?.....

Quote:
 
Also, The Kawai RX2 is a big piano and it is just a little over your budget.

I gather he's also goa a Kawai he's trying to sell you? Naturally, we must assume that it's *not* an evil "grey market" one..... he'd *never* sell one of those, you know......

How convenient! We now know that 98% of all the pianos in your price range are the same old junk, all coming out of the "7 sisters", worth less than 6K new, except for *his* supply of course... all the used Yamaha and Kawais on the market are evil "grey market" pieces of junk.... except for *his* inventory, of course... and the private market is useless. Fortunately, out of all the junk out there, there are *two pianos* that can save your bacon - and ..... HE HAS THEM!!!!! HAPPY DAY!!!!

Quote:
 
Furthermore, consider that you will avoid sales tax by having me ship a piano to you.

Products shipped commercially over state lines are not taxable. BUT - products *delivered* by private truck across state lines *are* taxable. If it goes on his own company delivery truck, the tax must be collected. He'll learn that one day.....

Quote:
 
So there you have it. Two really good choices just a little over your budget.

Why, I'm simply giddy with delight at how lucky you are! Out of all the junk, two pianos rise to the top... and they're both in his store!.....

Quote:
 
and it would be unlikely you would ever trade unless you went to a Steinway.

And as we all know, there is only *one* piano that anyone would *ever* consider trading to, and that's......

Short version:
98% of the pianos in your price range are junk. I sell the same junk, but mine is different because it has a Steinway owned name stuck on it. Don't buy anything used, they're all junk. Unless you buy my 20 year old repainted Baldwin or my Kawai, of course, because they're not junk. These are your only two choices. Surely you're not dumb enough to miss this opportunity.


Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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George K
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Finally

Posted Image

Sales Weasel..........Larry..
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Bless you, Larry! That was a great post. Someone should save that somewhere. In fact, someone should put that in a movie (could be about someone selling a car or whatever). That would be hilarious to see a sales weasel getting dressed down like that!
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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M&M's
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Fulla-Carp
George K
Nov 29 2006, 07:46 AM
justme
Nov 29 2006, 09:40 AM
But, IMHO, there is no problem with purchasing a piano from Costco if you've done your homework on the various pianos. When Costco sells a top brand piano such as Yamaha, they always sell through a dealer. After the purchase you receive two receipts. One from Costco and when from the local dealer. The dealer's service department (not the dealer's sales staff) will be your customer support for any issues that may arise with the piano. I sold many pianos through Costcos up and down the east coast just a few years ago. Unless things have changed drastically I see no reason why someone should not purchase a quality piano from them.


(I was waiting for you!)

Thanks for the insight on buying through Costco, justme. I was wondering how that all works - you've cleared it up. The only pianos I see advertised on Costco's web page are the (shudder) Suzukis. How would one know when a (as you put it) "quality" piano is available, other than frequent trips to the store?

Thanks again.

Luke's dad can add to this once he sees this thread!
My child shows GOOD CHARACTERIZATION in an ongoing game of D&D
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RosemaryTwo
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HOLY CARP!!!
I am wiser by the minute, I feel.

I've always liked Costco, thanks Justme, for the tutorial on how they work. I'll keep my membership there active and stay alert for pianos there, too. They really do seem to have a good corporate philosophy of taking care of their customers and offering quality products.

I drove for about an hour today to look at a piano restoration store I found in the yellow pages. Man oh man, the store needed more restoration than any piano I've ever seen (it actually looked out of business). Whole lotta wasted gas.

I was SO ready to go in and talk pianos. I had been practicing all morning, "Larry. Larry. Larry."

I'm ready to strike soon.

Rosemary
"Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua
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justme
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HOLY CARP!!!
I love Costco and wouldn't hesitate buying anything there. Unfortunately, we don't have one close to us. The closest one is over an hour away so we're stuck with Sam's. Ugh! Just not as clean and the employees don't even compare to Costco's.

Have you priced the 5'9" Sohmer, French Provincial? I'd be curious as to what they are going for now. Mark paid close to $15K with tax. I know he overpaid. It was a surprise for me so I wasn't there to negotiate or help him. They probably said "$14,500" and he probably said "okay". He hates that kind of stuff. In anycase it was just tuned for Christmas. It sounds and plays beautifully. I'm really pleased.

We just purchased a Victorian snow village for the top of it. I'll have to post pics when I get the chance.
"Men sway more towards hussies." G-D3
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RosemaryTwo
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HOLY CARP!!!
I haven't priced any Sohmers -- I haven't found any dealers that sell the yet. I only looked at that one used one that is around 20 years old.

Larry Fine has a new 5'9'' Sohmer (SMC), French Provincial listed at $18,590. I bet your piano is beautiful.

"Perhaps the thing to do is just to let stupid run its course." Aqua
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Steve Cohen
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Junior Carp
Larry, even I love your analysis. A work of art. :artist:
"I wouldn't mind paying taxes if I knew they were going to a friendly country!" - Dick Gregory


Dealer Principal and Industry Consultant
Jasons Music Centers - Family Owned
Since 1937 - Serving Maryland/DC
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
And yet, there are still people who deny that we're in the End of Days...


^_^
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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jodi
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Fulla-Carp
OperaTenor
Nov 28 2006, 04:07 PM
Not charging sales tax for out-of-state transactions is legal in most states.

But I do believe you are supposed to report those buys to your own state and pay sales tax on them there each year when you pay your state income tax. At least, that's what we had to do when we lived in Idaho.

:) Jodi
:) Jodi
my artlog ~ todayatmydesk.weebly.com
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
jodi
Nov 29 2006, 06:32 PM
OperaTenor
Nov 28 2006, 04:07 PM
Not charging sales tax for out-of-state transactions is legal in most states.

But I do believe you are supposed to report those buys to your own state and pay sales tax on them there each year when you pay your state income tax. At least, that's what we had to do when we lived in Idaho.

:) Jodi

Hi Jody!

:lol:
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Steve Cohen
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Dewey
Nov 29 2006, 05:54 PM
And yet, there are still people who deny that we're in the End of Days...


^_^

:lol: :lol: :lol:
"I wouldn't mind paying taxes if I knew they were going to a friendly country!" - Dick Gregory


Dealer Principal and Industry Consultant
Jasons Music Centers - Family Owned
Since 1937 - Serving Maryland/DC
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
jodi
Nov 29 2006, 06:32 PM
OperaTenor
Nov 28 2006, 04:07 PM
Not charging sales tax for out-of-state transactions is legal in most states.

But I do believe you are supposed to report those buys to your own state and pay sales tax on them there each year when you pay your state income tax. At least, that's what we had to do when we lived in Idaho.

:) Jodi

This is a common misconception, and lots of stores do it that way. But - if they ever get audited, they're gonna learn a hard lesson.

Here it is:

States cannot tax interstate commerce. But they *can* parse the definition of interstate commerce - and they have. Here's how:

Products are purchased by someone in one state from a company in another state.
Obviously, the product has to be sent from the seller to the buyer somehow. There are three methods:

1. The customer is standing in the store when he buys it, and takes it with him.
2. The seller puts it on his own private delivery truck and takes it to him.
3. The seller ships it via commercial delivery, either by freight truck, UPS, US mail, etc.

Definition of a commercial delivery: Any third party delivery business that is hired by you and not owned by you.

In example 1, the customer must pay the taxes due in the state and county where the seller does business, to the seller, at the time of purchase.

In example 2, the buyer must pay the taxes due in the state and county where the seller does business, to the seller, at the time of purchase. This is *not* a commercial delivery, and is not covered by the "interstate commerce" laws.

In example 3, the buyer does not take possession of the merchandise in the seller's state, so he does not owe taxes to that state. He owes taxes to *his* state, because he will be taking possession of the merchandise in his own state. The seller is not required to collect taxes not due his state, and since none are due, he cannot collect the taxes for the buyer's state - UNLESS: he sends his delivery truck into the buyer's state (see example 2) or he has a place of business in the buyer's state.

The buyer in example 3 is required by law to report the purchase to the state he lives in and pay the taxes due his state, ie the state he took possession of the merchandise in. However - since the seller is not required to report your purchase to your state, he only reports a tax exempt sale made to his state, the only way the buyer's state will know about the purchase is if:

1. The buyer tells the state
2. The seller's state audits the seller and takes the information and reports it to the buyer's state - something about as likely to happen as you finding an airplane in your driveway tomorrow morning.

Example 2 won't happen, example 1..... the buyer would be an idiot....
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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