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No more ethnic identity.; ...another mini-rant
Topic Started: Nov 28 2006, 11:52 AM (592 Views)
The 89th Key
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I work indirectly on many government projects. I'm used to the racist policies of affirmative action (based on race, not need), minority business subcontracting requirements (based on race, not need), et cetera.

But now we are working on this one project, in which I dont want to give any details. But let me just sum it up by saying it's just ANOTHER time where we are creating this illustration and we KEEP tweaking it so that one of the characters does not have a ethnic identity. She was "too white" or "too black" or too this or that. I'm not sure why it ticks me off...perhaps it's because we are so incredibly focused on creating a society with no identification that I feel it robs us of our pride, our uniqueness, our IDENTITY.

If an illustration has a black woman talking to a class...I DONT CARE! If it's a white woman, I DONT CARE! I dont care if everyone on a poster is asian or hispanic or white or black or purple!

We try to incredibly hard to make each and every product universally representative (which is futile, btw), and in the process we just make everyone tanned.

I can't really pinpoint it, but it just ticks me off. As you know by now.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
You should get a proper job making stuff out of wood or something. All this marketing jiggery-pokery nonsense is all well and good, but it's not going to put food on the table in the event of a nuclear catastrophe.

Might I suggest investing in the humble pumpkin? Just by chance, I have a large consignment of this delicious and nutritous vegetable, and a man such as yourself would be an ideal candidate to travel around the country in an old pick-up truck (not included in offer) selling these items to the modern family. It's a little known fact that one in 20 pumpkins actually contains a small but substantial solid gold nugget. Just think, you could be rich, and no more messing about creating politically correct presentations, or politically incorrect facsimiles of Ben Folds for that matter.

Call me on 1-800-SUCKER if you're interested.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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The 89th Key
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John...that reminds me of this clip. Watch until the end...gotta get that volcano insurance!

PS. This is the source of "Touche, salesman!" A reply often made by Aqua and myself here on the board.

Just watch the first 2 minutes... http://youtube.com/watch?v=rAON9ynwdJM
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
All I'll get is a big red hand and a call from IS. I'll have to wait until I get home.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
Anyone here have kids that are in elementary school, right now? Remember when it was Dick & Jane? No more. Now it's Javier or Juan and Kimi or Sachiko.

That's right: Brainwash those kids!!! Don't let them figure it out for themselves. Grind that diversity right in their faces!! Way to go!!

:veryangry: :rolleyes2:
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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Moonbat
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Quote:
 

If an illustration has a black woman talking to a class...I DONT CARE! If it's a white woman, I DONT CARE! I dont care if everyone on a poster is asian or hispanic or white or black or purple!


Yet you care if the illustration fits no racial class?
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
As a quiet note of dissent, I think it's worth pointing out that those magical days of yore were filled with some pretty nasty prejudice. Now I don't much like political correctness, but when all the characters in all the books are white, with blonde hair and blue eyes (and this includes the bible), there's something rotten in the state of Denmark, other than that funny blue cheese.

As always, what has happened is that people have had a good idea, to be inclusive of other races and cultures, and it's been taken too far. That doesn't make the original idea wrong, it just indicates that there's a lot of stupid people out there. I don't think all of them are in Denmark, either.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
which Bible is full of blonde haired, blue eyed people?

:blink:
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
DivaDeb
Nov 28 2006, 03:44 PM
which Bible is full of blonde haired, blue eyed people?

:blink:

I should clarify - Biblical scenes, represented artistically, had a tendency in years gone by to look a little Anglo-Saxon, all things considered.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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The 89th Key
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Moonbat
Nov 28 2006, 03:37 PM
Quote:
 

If an illustration has a black woman talking to a class...I DONT CARE! If it's a white woman, I DONT CARE! I dont care if everyone on a poster is asian or hispanic or white or black or purple!


Yet you care if the illustration fits no racial class?

I care that such a strong effort is made to eradicate ethnic identities from the illustration. They might as well have a black onyx dot that is labeled "Person #1" or something. I dont care if the person is tall, short, black, white, whatever. I do care when an effort is made to blend it all together so that someone's feelings aren't hurt. Boo freakin hoo.
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The 89th Key
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John D'Oh
Nov 28 2006, 03:46 PM
DivaDeb
Nov 28 2006, 03:44 PM
which Bible is full of blonde haired, blue eyed people?

:blink:

I should clarify - Biblical scenes, represented artistically, had a tendency in years gone by to look a little Anglo-Saxon, all things considered.

I think that's only because those who were reading and drawing them, were also white. I've seen pictures of Jesus as depicted in Japan, and he looks oriental there.
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Moonbat
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If you don't care whether someone is tall short black, white or whatever then why do you care about "blending them" so that someone's feelings aren't hurt?
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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The 89th Key
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Because I think it is wrong and dishonest to purposefully hide identities simply to appease the easily offended.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Nov 28 2006, 03:46 PM
DivaDeb
Nov 28 2006, 03:44 PM
which Bible is full of blonde haired, blue eyed people?

:blink:

I should clarify - Biblical scenes, represented artistically, had a tendency in years gone by to look a little Anglo-Saxon, all things considered.

Only the ones you're accustomed to seeing. The ones from, say, Ethiopia, have typically had a somewhat different look.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Nov 28 2006, 01:46 PM
DivaDeb
Nov 28 2006, 03:44 PM
which Bible is full of blonde haired, blue eyed people?

:blink:

I should clarify - Biblical scenes, represented artistically, had a tendency in years gone by to look a little Anglo-Saxon, all things considered.

African Christian art typically represents Jesus and Mary as negroes, Oriental Christian art represents them as Asian, Eskimo Christian art as Eskimos. The Ethnological Missionary Museum at the Vatican is full of indigenous representations of sacred art -- I doubt any of them look like aryan poster boys. It is only our Western stupidity sensibilities that finds this to be offensive or misplaced.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
I've got a solution. If the poster is to sell watermelons or chicken, make everyone black. Otherwise, make everyone white....

(just KIDDING!.... jeez........)
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Quote:
 
as negroes,


HE SAID NEGROES!! HE SAID NEGROES!!! HE SAID NEGROES!!.........

:D
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
We try to incredibly hard to make each and every product universally representative (which is futile, btw), and in the process we just make everyone tanned.

I can't really pinpoint it, but it just ticks me off. As you know by now.


It doesn't tick me off, but I always have to laugh over a similar thing that is almost universal. I chuckled over it when I saw it yet again the other day, and I pointed it out to my daughter.

Look at the graphics in clothing stores. In our case, we're shopping for girls' clothing, so the graphics show girls. There are almost always three girls in the graphic. Almost without fail, there will be one white girl, one black girl, and one Asian girl. The white girl is never placed in the center of the trio, lest it imply white superiority, I suppose. Almost universally, the black girl is in the center. Equally often, the black and Asian girl are smiling. If any child in the picture is not smiling, it's the white kid, who is almost always looking at one of the other girls, while the other two are looking into the camera.

I don't see it as reverse racism, I just see it as a bit of politically correct absurdity in the minds of the retailers - not that they feature multiracial groups in their graphics, but in the fact that the "template" of the graphic almost without exception is the same.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Moonbat
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The 89th Key
Nov 28 2006, 09:19 PM
Because I think it is wrong and dishonest to purposefully hide identities simply to appease the easily offended.

So would you be as annoyed if they were avoiding making characters too short or too tall as you are with them not making them too black or white?

(In my view PC stuff is mostly ridiculous, but i have no interest in striving to maintain made up identities that simply separate us off from one another)
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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The 89th Key
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Dewey
Nov 28 2006, 04:32 PM
Quote:
 
We try to incredibly hard to make each and every product universally representative (which is futile, btw), and in the process we just make everyone tanned.

I can't really pinpoint it, but it just ticks me off. As you know by now.


It doesn't tick me off, but I always have to laugh over a similar thing that is almost universal. I chuckled over it when I saw it yet again the other day, and I pointed it out to my daughter.

Look at the graphics in clothing stores. In our case, we're shopping for girls' clothing, so the graphics show girls. There are almost always three girls in the graphic. Almost without fail, there will be one white girl, one black girl, and one Asian girl. The white girl is never placed in the center of the trio, lest it imply white superiority, I suppose. Almost universally, the black girl is in the center. Equally often, the black and Asian girl are smiling. If any child in the picture is not smiling, it's the white kid, who is almost always looking at one of the other girls, while the other two are looking into the camera.

I don't see it as reverse racism, I just see it as a bit of politically correct absurdity in the minds of the retailers - not that they feature multiracial groups in their graphics, but in the fact that the "template" of the graphic almost without exception is the same.

Three items:

1) If it's a private business, I dont care what they do...
2) Even though they have the same template, at least they are allowing the races to be identified! Oh the horror!
3) Just a little thing. Racism is racism...reverse racism should actually be tolerance! :P
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The 89th Key
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Moonbat
Nov 28 2006, 04:45 PM
The 89th Key
Nov 28 2006, 09:19 PM
Because I think it is wrong and dishonest to purposefully hide identities simply to appease the easily offended.

So would you be as annoyed if they were avoiding making characters too short or too tall as you are with them not making them too black or white?

(In my view PC stuff is mostly ridiculous, but i have no interest in striving to maintain made up identities that simply separate us off from one another)

First part: If they went out of their way to hide someone's height, yes that would get to me too.

Second part: What made up identities strive to separate us? The only made up identities are the ones the government makes up. :2face:
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Moonbat
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All identities are made up. One can choose to group people by any criterea one chooses: height mass, hair colour, eye colour, ability to roll one's tongue, etc. etc. The criterea for "ethnic identities" are no less arbitrary than any of the above.

The reason i think they seperate us, or atleast allowing them significance seperates us is that i notice these group identity things tend to create sub-groups that care about them and theirs (as David Burton would say) more than others not part of their subgroup. I don't like that. I'd rather live in a world where the only group "identity" that mattered was human.

Obviously this Utopian ideal is pretty pipe-dreamish as it's contradicted by psychology - it seems there is something in our nature that means we necessarily put people in boxes and wish to be part of some group identity ourselves.

However it seems to me there is a fair amount of lee-way in terms of the significance granted to these categorisations. In parts of the Western world there has been pressure on the reduction of racial idenitity as something to be viewed as a significant element of who and what someone is. That pressure seems to be working albeit slowly and I think that's a good thing.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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The 89th Key
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Moonbat
Nov 28 2006, 05:09 PM
All identities are made up. One can choose to group people by any criterea one chooses: height mass, hair colour, eye colour, ability to roll one's tongue, etc. etc. The criterea for "ethnic identities" are no less arbitrary than any of the above.

The reason i think they seperate us, or atleast allowing them significance seperates us is that i notice these group identity things tend to create sub-groups that care about them and theirs (as David Burton would say) more than others not part of their subgroup. I don't like that. I'd rather live in a world where the only group "identity" that mattered was human.

Obviously this Utopian ideal is pretty pipe-dreamish as it's contradicted by psychology - it seems there is something in our nature that means we necessarily put people in boxes and wish to be part of some group identity ourselves.

However it seems to me there is a fair amount of lee-way in terms of the significance granted to these categorisations. In parts of the Western world there has been pressure on the reduction of racial idenitity as something to be viewed as a significant element of who and what someone is. That pressure seems to be working albeit slowly and I think that's a good thing.

I disagree, not all identities are made up. There are physical traits that you have when you are born. Skin color, hair color, height, etc. I dont think there should be an active attempt to blend it all into one category and hide ethnicity. There's nothing wrong with being a white person in a government advertisement. If someone is offended, there is something wrong with the offended, not the offender.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
John D'Oh
Nov 28 2006, 03:04 PM
You should get a proper job making stuff out of wood or something. All this marketing jiggery-pokery nonsense is all well and good, but it's not going to put food on the table in the event of a nuclear catastrophe.

Might I suggest investing in the humble pumpkin? Just by chance, I have a large consignment of this delicious and nutritous vegetable, and a man such as yourself would be an ideal candidate to travel around the country in an old pick-up truck (not included in offer) selling these items to the modern family. It's a little known fact that one in 20 pumpkins actually contains a small but substantial solid gold nugget. Just think, you could be rich, and no more messing about creating politically correct presentations, or politically incorrect facsimiles of Ben Folds for that matter.

Call me on 1-800-SUCKER if you're interested.

You overplant the pumpkin patch this year?

My wife's plantings resulted in a similar surplus of odd shaped gourds that were literally hanging from the trees (quite an aggressive climber that particular vine). Sadly, no gold nuggets thus far.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Moonbat
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I disagree, not all identities are made up. There are physical traits that you have when you are born. Skin color, hair color, height, etc. I dont think there should be an active attempt to blend it all into one category and hide ethnicity. There's nothing wrong with being a white person in a government advertisement. If someone is offended, there is something wrong with the offended, not the offender.


Physical characteristics are not made up, but the weaving of some of them together to make an "identity" is. (And as mentioend above i think it's divisive)

I agree with you that if someone is offended by a magazine that happens to show a cartoon with a caucasian in it, then that's pretty ridiculous. Though one can vaguely see that if all fiction centred on one "racial group" then that could easily (and probably correctly) be interpretted as reflecting some underlying bias.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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