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A Losing Battle in Anbar?; That's What the Marines Say
Topic Started: Nov 28 2006, 06:30 AM (624 Views)
The 89th Key
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I respect an honest report as the next person, but I think you are painting with a bit too broad of a brush, Quirt. There have been countless reports saying what we need to do to win, and that we can win...all over the country. There have been countless testimonies by troops on the ground saying the same thing. It's true that this USMC report says that given the CURRENT situation in the ANBAR province, that we cant win there. That's only in that (very large) province, and it was one report. Stack this one (maybe of few) reports saying that we cant win against the stacks and stacks of other reports saying that we can, and are winning...and you'll see my point.
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Frank_W
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Resident Misanthrope
This is like saying that because in California, East Los Angeles is a dangerous, drug/gang-ridden slum, that there's no peace and no hope of winning the peace in California.

Iraq is roughly the size of California, and it has some areas where a lot of bad chit is still happening. Yes, troops are still dying, and yes, horrible atrocities are being committed by the "insurgents." (And since when were terrorists legitimized by calling them "insurgents," as if they are some kind of freedom fighters? Pffffft....)

Anyway... We've won. The tough question now, is securing the peace. Different mission. Time for a different strategy to augment what's already in place. For the hardcore combat stuff, full speed ahead!! For the rest of the country, rebuilding the infrastructure, schools, industry, and training the Iraqi security forces are the top priorities and need to continue to be so.
Anatomy Prof: "The human body has about 20 sq. meters of skin."
Me: "Man, that's a lot of lampshades!"
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
QuirtEvans
Nov 28 2006, 03:04 PM
The Marines are saying we can't win in Anbar. 

That is not what they are saying. They are saying we are not now winning in Anbar and even list possible options for bringing it under control:

Quote:
 
In a final section of the report, titled "Way Ahead," Devlin outlined several possibilities for bringing stability to the area, including establishing a Sunni state in Anbar, creating a local paramilitary force to protect Sunnis and to offset Iranian influence, shifting local budget controls, and strengthening a committed Iraqi police force that has "proven remarkably resilient in most areas."


That is long way from saying we can't win and is light years from what John Murtha has been saying:

Quote:
 
Devlin ended the assessment by saying that while violence has surged, the presence of U.S. troops in Anbar has had "a real suppressive effect on the insurgency." He said the suffering of "Anbar's citizens undoubtedly would be far worse now if it was not for the very effective efforts" of U.S. forces.


"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
I was struck by the part where it said that Sunnis are reluctant to rely on the U.S. forces because they expect a precipitous pull-out. Hence they ramp up sectarian violence and cozy up to foreign fighters like Al-Quaeda.

I think the single most important factor that is sapping the national will is constant bleating of bad news and releasing classified information by MSM. The enemy is watching and waiting. Bin Laden will yet be proved right. The US has no stomach for fighting any kind of insurgency.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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OperaTenor
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Pisa-Carp
Ben
Nov 28 2006, 08:31 AM
Hey, do whatever you want. It's not my $3,000,000,000/day in tax money (or whatever the actual figure is, I think it's higher) paying for it

The actual figure is $11 million per hour, which is the same as $364 million per day.

Chump change by comparison. You could hardly feed all of the starving people in the world for that kind of money.

Oops, my sarcasm is showing...



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OperaTenor
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Kincaid
Nov 28 2006, 02:15 PM
The US has no stomach for fighting any kind of insurgency.

I'm still trying to figure out how any external, occupying force can succeed against an insurgency, which de facto has popular support.

I'm not trying to be snarky this time. It simply seems completely illogical to me that we can do anything but totally annihilate the country and "win". As long as we fight a force that largely has the support of the local populace, we will never win their hearts and minds while they're still alive. The populace, that is...



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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
I agree w/you OT. I'm not sure that the insurgency has "popular" support, but they are more popular than us.

I do wonder at what point of total devastation the Germans or Japanese in WWII ended up liking us better than their once popular leaders? Did our merciless attack continue to create more nationalists in those countries until reaching some kind of tipping point?
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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OperaTenor
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Kincaid
Nov 28 2006, 03:12 PM
I do wonder at what point of total devastation the Germans or Japanese in WWII ended up liking us better than their once popular leaders? Did our merciless attack continue to create more nationalists in those countries until reaching some kind of tipping point?

In the case of the Germans, I think they only saw us as a preferable fate over falling to the advancing Russians, due to the reports of atrocities being committed.

As for the Japanese, IIRC, they were not inclined to like the Americans until Hirohito told them to like us. They were prepared to fight to the last civilian, sharpened bamboo poles in hand, in the event of an American invasion of the Japanese homeland, even though their cities were burned out shells and their government leaders were berzerk.

Why is it we fail to learn from these examples? Nationalism is a strong, prejudicial force in any society, and will sustain hatred for an occupying force long after logic dictates capitulation.



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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Kincaid
Nov 28 2006, 06:15 PM
I was struck by the part where it said that Sunnis are reluctant to rely on the U.S. forces because they expect a precipitous pull-out.

Gee... I wonder where they got THAT idea.....
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Daniel\
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Fulla-Carp
I don't like how the PM tells the US military what it can and cannot do. If you want to talk about who is stopping the US military from doing what it wants and/or needs to do maybe you can put this in your pipe and smoke it. :wacko:

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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
JBryan
Nov 28 2006, 03:47 PM
QuirtEvans
Nov 28 2006, 03:04 PM
The Marines are saying we can't win in Anbar. 

That is not what they are saying. They are saying we are not now winning in Anbar and even list possible options for bringing it under control:

Quote:
 
In a final section of the report, titled "Way Ahead," Devlin outlined several possibilities for bringing stability to the area, including establishing a Sunni state in Anbar, creating a local paramilitary force to protect Sunnis and to offset Iranian influence, shifting local budget controls, and strengthening a committed Iraqi police force that has "proven remarkably resilient in most areas."


That is long way from saying we can't win and is light years from what John Murtha has been saying:

Quote:
 
Devlin ended the assessment by saying that while violence has surged, the presence of U.S. troops in Anbar has had "a real suppressive effect on the insurgency." He said the suffering of "Anbar's citizens undoubtedly would be far worse now if it was not for the very effective efforts" of U.S. forces.

Perhaps the initial quote should be repeated:

Quote:
 
"the social and political situation has deteriorated to a point" that U.S. and Iraqi troops "are no longer capable of militarily defeating the insurgency in al-Anbar."


"No longer capable of defeating the insurgency". Not currently. "No longer capable". Pretty sweeping language. Very unlike how you are trying to interpret it.

And Frank ... it's more like saying the violence in the United States cannot be brought under control if violence cannot be brought under control in Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and Michigan. A closer comparison.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
In the first place the initial quote says "no longer capable of militarily defeating the insurgency in Al-Anbar". That could mean a lot of things that don't add up to "incapable of defeating the insurgency in Al-Anbar" depending on exactly how, in the report, that was framed. Does it mean with the force currently in place? Using tactics presently employed? Who knows. That iniitial quote is not a citation from the report itself but seems, rather, to be the reporters characterization of it. Very treacherous territory for determining the precise conclusion of a report no one outside of a small circle has even seen.

Not trying to argue that things are peachy in Anbar. Things have steadily deteriorated there since troops were siphoned off into Baghdad. I am increasingly getting the perception that we are playing whack-a-mole in Iraq without a forceful strategy for ending the violence. The biggest problem seems to be that we have become focused on Iraq and forget that we are actually engaged in a regional conflict with Iran and Syria very much involved. They are the real enemy and we should be looking out toward them (sealing the border, probing their defenses, applying steady pressure) instead of our attention spiralling into the internal problems of Iraq most of which are being fueled from Iran and Syria.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
For what it's worth, the way it's written, it purports to be a quote from the report itself.

Yes, the word "militarily" is a qualifier. But it's certainly very different from the "everything is coming up roses" view that some (not you) around here seem to have.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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David Burton
Senior Carp
We were prevented from “winning” in Korea
We were prevented from “winning” in Vietnam
We were prevented from “winning” in Somalia
We were prevented from “winning” in Iraq

Were we prevented from “winning” in Kosovo?

If Q and others want to continually post here their defeatist arguments, --- edited ---, why he’d even have suggested giving up the fight of our lives during the Civil War too, then we should exercise our right to raise the stakes higher – and they will be. “Let nature take its course.”

Some people are getting it though – even Nancy Pelosi, she knows better than to appoint the most rabid rascals in her party. You suspect someone from behind the scenes kind of told her so? You can bet on it.

Next scene, the fat, spoiled, ugly or pseudo-glamorous, lazy and COWARDLY Americans lick their wounds after a pull out from Iraq, a place servicemen have come back and told me is like the gates of hell on Earth because THE PEOPLE THERE DON’T WANT ANYTHING BETTER. The solution? Replace the people.

My sympathies were with all those who would have won wars without wasting too many lives, like Douglas MacArthur and George Patton; winning decisively and without quarter, getting it done quickly, brutally and thoroughly. Break them, or don’t even bother. That’s what war is and --- strongly edited ---. A winning strategy is what Frank W has posted. --- edited ----.
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Daniel\
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Fulla-Carp
What fun.

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mmmaestro007
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Middle Aged Carp
i suspect the Arabs now have no confidence in the West being able to restore peace(and justifiably so!) and the only hope is if the Arab nations pull together to find a resolution
"Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of giving pleasure to thousands, and all you can do is scratch it!"

Sir Thomas Beechem, conductor
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