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REPORT: Rumsfeld to resign!; ...Jon-Nyc, you were right on the money!
Topic Started: Nov 8 2006, 09:57 AM (740 Views)
JBryan
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I am the grey one
Quote:
 
Rumsfeld was a disaster. He didn't wage a war on Terror, he waged a war to CREATE terror.

We need to quietly slip out of Iraq ASAP and let those nice people get on with butchering each other. We are in the middle of a 1500 year old war between those folks that will go in for a thousand years to come.

The entire country isn't worth one more American life or one more American dollar.


you are starting to sound just like jf.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Jolly
Nov 8 2006, 02:44 PM
QuirtEvans
Nov 8 2006, 12:06 PM
I'm utterly astounded.  But I guess it gives W the opportunity to adopt a new strategy somewhat more gracefully, without Rummy having to admit that the old one was an abject failure.

Knocked me over.

What has not been mentioned is that Bush interviewed Rumsfeld's replacement last weekend, so that this was definitely a pre-election move.

Bush said so in the press conference.

And he said, basically, that he'd lied to the reporters who had asked him the question a week ago, because he didn't want it to become an issue in the election.

He also said that, when he spoke to the reporters about Rummy, he hadn't spoken to Rumsfeld for the final time yet, and didn't talk to the new guy until Sunday.

But he said that he answered the question the way he did ... that Rummy would be around for the next two years ... just to get them off the subject.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
JBryan
Nov 8 2006, 03:54 PM
Quote:
 
Rumsfeld was a disaster. He didn't wage a war on Terror, he waged a war to CREATE terror.

We need to quietly slip out of Iraq ASAP and let those nice people get on with butchering each other. We are in the middle of a 1500 year old war between those folks that will go in for a thousand years to come.

The entire country isn't worth one more American life or one more American dollar.


you are starting to sound just like jf.

This is one topic on which the far left and the far right can agree.

The Afghanistan War was fine--they attacked us. They welcomed us when we freed their country. For the Iraqi's on the other hand we just gave them an opportunity to keep on fighting a centuries old war. The Iraqi's certainly aren't stepping up to the plate to police themselves. They aren't unifying into a country--they just keep going on butchering themselves for whatever reasons.

That's just the kind of people they are. Nothing we can do to civilize them--as a matter of fact--it's not our job to civilize them. All we need to do is bomb them occasionally if they cause us any trouble.

Carpet bomb them--in fact. :lol:
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
QuirtEvans
Nov 8 2006, 02:56 PM
Jolly
Nov 8 2006, 02:44 PM
QuirtEvans
Nov 8 2006, 12:06 PM
I'm utterly astounded.  But I guess it gives W the opportunity to adopt a new strategy somewhat more gracefully, without Rummy having to admit that the old one was an abject failure.

Knocked me over.

What has not been mentioned is that Bush interviewed Rumsfeld's replacement last weekend, so that this was definitely a pre-election move.

Bush said so in the press conference.

And he said, basically, that he'd lied to the reporters who had asked him the question a week ago, because he didn't want it to become an issue in the election.

He also said that, when he spoke to the reporters about Rummy, he hadn't spoken to Rumsfeld for the final time yet, and didn't talk to the new guy until Sunday.

But he said that he answered the question the way he did ... that Rummy would be around for the next two years ... just to get them off the subject.

Finally caught him in a lie...
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
TomK
Nov 8 2006, 03:05 PM
JBryan
Nov 8 2006, 03:54 PM
Quote:
 
Rumsfeld was a disaster. He didn't wage a war on Terror, he waged a war to CREATE terror.

We need to quietly slip out of Iraq ASAP and let those nice people get on with butchering each other. We are in the middle of a 1500 year old war between those folks that will go in for a thousand years to come.

The entire country isn't worth one more American life or one more American dollar.


you are starting to sound just like jf.

This is one topic on which the far left and the far right can agree.

The Afghanistan War was fine--they attacked us. They welcomed us when we freed their country. For the Iraqi's on the other hand we just gave them an opportunity to keep on fighting a centuries old war. The Iraqi's certainly aren't stepping up to the plate to police themselves. They aren't unifying into a country--they just keep going on butchering themselves for whatever reasons.

That's just the kind of people they are. Nothing we can do to civilize them--as a matter of fact--it's not our job to civilize them. All we need to do is bomb them occasionally if they cause us any trouble.

Carpet bomb them--in fact. :lol:

Tom, I have stated my position repeatedly so you know what I think. One day history will note that Saddam may well have become a nuclear power within a few short years had we left him in power. Once removed we certainly can't just walk away from it because then it degenerates into a bigger threat to us. No good options on this one. carpet bombing only makes matters worse. You need to look past the next martini.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
JBryan
Nov 8 2006, 11:54 AM
Quote:
 
Rumsfeld was a disaster. He didn't wage a war on Terror, he waged a war to CREATE terror.

We need to quietly slip out of Iraq ASAP and let those nice people get on with butchering each other. We are in the middle of a 1500 year old war between those folks that will go in for a thousand years to come.

The entire country isn't worth one more American life or one more American dollar.


you are starting to sound just like jf.

No, I long as I can recall Tom has always been a isolationist. So what he is saying is nothing new except sometime in past year he ceased being a staunchly pro-Bush Administration isolationist to being just another pseudo-conservative isolationist.
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
JBryan
Nov 8 2006, 03:54 PM
Quote:
 
Rumsfeld was a disaster. He didn't wage a war on Terror, he waged a war to CREATE terror.

We need to quietly slip out of Iraq ASAP and let those nice people get on with butchering each other. We are in the middle of a 1500 year old war between those folks that will go in for a thousand years to come.

The entire country isn't worth one more American life or one more American dollar.


you are starting to sound just like jf.

Actually I am more moderate than that.

I think it is brilliant first move by W. there was never going to be any success (can you spell c-h-a-n-g-e) in Iraq with Rumsfeld in the way. This is the first big step towards a solution to this mess. Unlike Tom, I have no idea what the second step should be, but I DO know that Rumsfeld had to go (and should have been canned a year ago).

Good for W.

If he can take another equally smart step...and then another...pretty soon he'll even be walking.

jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Ben
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Jack Frost
Nov 8 2006, 03:28 PM
JBryan
Nov 8 2006, 03:54 PM
Quote:
 
Rumsfeld was a disaster. He didn't wage a war on Terror, he waged a war to CREATE terror.

We need to quietly slip out of Iraq ASAP and let those nice people get on with butchering each other. We are in the middle of a 1500 year old war between those folks that will go in for a thousand years to come.

The entire country isn't worth one more American life or one more American dollar.


you are starting to sound just like jf.

Actually I am more moderate than that.

I think it is brilliant first move by W. there was never going to be any success (can you spell c-h-a-n-g-e) in Iraq with Rumsfeld in the way. This is the first big step towards a solution to this mess. Unlike Tom, I have no idea what the second step should be, but I DO know that Rumsfeld had to go (and should have been canned a year ago).

Good for W.

If he can take another equally smart step...and then another...pretty soon he'll even be walking.

jf

I agree wholeheartedly. I just saw this on the TV in the hall thirty seconds ago (I'm still at school :()
- Ben

"Playing 'bop' is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing." - Duke Ellington

bennieloohoo@gmail.com
Or you can just PM me. :P
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The 89th Key
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QuirtEvans
Nov 8 2006, 01:28 PM
Bush sounds really angry. Not contrite, angry.

I agree, he ended each sentence with a matter-of-fact sound...sounded pissed off.

As I mentioned in the other thread, regardless of what you think of Rummy...this is a war of public opinions and Rummy really needed to step down to give the appearance of a fresh look, new ideas, etc....even though nothing might change on the ground.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
I think this link has a keen insight into why Rumsfeld resigned now.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/The_New_Coffee...showtopic=17046
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Jack Frost
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Rumsfeld’s Departure

Published: November 8, 2006, NY Times

Whatever this election accomplished -- and it remains to be seen if it ended the rancor and distrust that define current American politics -- voters made it crystal clear that they want a change in direction in Iraq. Democratic and Republican leaders alike agreed that it had to begin with replacing Donald Rumsfeld as Secretary of Defense.

President Bush showed that he had heard the second half of that message and finally rid himself of the man whose bad judgments and inept leadership had done so much to create the mess in Iraq. But it still was not clear that he has yet heard the first, and more important part of the message. At his press conference, Mr. Bush was still talking about victory in precisely the same terms he had used before the election, and offered no clear sense that he was prepared to open his mind to a real change in strategy.

The challenge for Mr. Rumsfeld’s chosen successor, Robert Gates, who was a deputy national security adviser to Mr. Bush’s father and then served as Director of Central Intelligence, will be to make Mr. Bush realize how desperate the situation is in Iraq and that the conduct of the war should be dictated by reality and not ideology.

It’s possible that no one could have turned the invasion of Iraq into a success, given the fissures in Iraqi society that the fall of Saddam Hussein exposed. But we will never know, since the shortage of American troops and the lack of postwar planning made disaster inevitable. Mr. Rumsfeld deserved to go simply because he failed at his job. Denying that reality is presumably why the president was so bent on keeping him until the Republicans’ huge losses at the polls on Tuesday forced his hand.

Before he presided over the Iraq invasion, Mr. Rumsfeld promised that as secretary of defense he was going to transform America’s military so it was prepared to fight the conflicts of the 21st century. Mr. Bush has cited the progress being made on that front as one of the reasons he wants Mr. Rumsfeld to stay. But -- in a familiar pattern for this administration -- the changes have been more rhetorical than real.

Truly transforming the military would have meant trading in expensive cold war weaponry, like attack submarines and stealth fighters, for pilotless drones, swifter ships and lighter, more mobile ground forces. Mr. Rumsfeld never had the interest -- or the political will -- to take on that fight. Instead, he bought peace with Congress and the military brass by holding down the size of ground forces in order to continue paying the ballooning cost of unnecessary weaponry. He created a smaller, more mobile force that was too small to successfully pacify Iraq.

There was absolutely nothing more left for Mr. Rumsfeld to do as secretary of defense except continue to defend failed policies and tinker with unworkable strategies. Most of the men and women who will be part of the new Congress came to that conclusion, whatever their party affiliation. Mr. Bush was claiming yesterday to be open to changes, talking repeatedly of a report from a bipartisan commission on Iraq that is due out soon. But we’re still waiting for a sign that Mr. Bush has grasped the urgency of the unfolding disaster in Iraq as anything beyond a political problem. Mr. Rumsfeld’s departure is merely the first step. It has to be followed by a major change in policy if American troops can be brought home without leaving a disaster behind.



jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Jack Frost
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JBryan
Nov 8 2006, 03:54 PM


you are starting to sound just like jf.

That was a compliment, right?

jf


Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Jack,

Now that they're in, specifically what changes do you want made in policy vis-a-vis Iraq?
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Jack Frost
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Mikhailoh
Nov 8 2006, 08:52 PM
Jack,

Now that they're in, specifically what changes do you want made in policy vis-a-vis Iraq?

I want an realistic articulation of our present goal and a plan to achieve it.

"Planting the seeds of democracy" went out the window more than a year ago and all we have done is "stay the course" in pursuit of that ghost.

jf

Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Jack Frost
Nov 8 2006, 07:06 PM
Mikhailoh
Nov 8 2006, 08:52 PM
Jack,

Now that they're in, specifically what changes do you want made in policy vis-a-vis Iraq?

I want an realistic articulation of our present goal and a plan to achieve it.

"Planting the seeds of democracy" went out the window more than a year ago and all we have done is "stay the course" in pursuit of that ghost.

jf

Oh, I dunno...gimme the Democrat's plan for Iraq.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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George K
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Finally
Am I the only one that sees the irony in this:

"Architect of 'shock and awe' becomes casualty of a disastrous war"
The Independent

At least they didn't call themselves the "Fair and Balanced."
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
Jolly
Nov 8 2006, 10:13 PM
Jack Frost
Nov 8 2006, 07:06 PM
Mikhailoh
Nov 8 2006, 08:52 PM
Jack,

Now that they're in, specifically what changes do you want made in policy vis-a-vis Iraq?

I want an realistic articulation of our present goal and a plan to achieve it.

"Planting the seeds of democracy" went out the window more than a year ago and all we have done is "stay the course" in pursuit of that ghost.

jf

Oh, I dunno...gimme the Democrat's plan for Iraq.

No you don't know. None of you guys have a clue what we are doing in Iraq at this point, do you?

I can't give a Dem plan. I have no idea what it might be or should be. I said that.

I DO know that the dumb ****s who got us into this mess are finally getting out of the way and we have some reasonably intelligent people (Baker et al) looking at it, and for the first time in six years W seems ready to listen to someone other than Rumsfeld, Cheney and the rest of the neocon idiots.

Jolly, I don't have a plan. I defer to some new brains smarter than me. You have been "stay the course" for six years. Defend that stupid position before you ask me for a ****ing plan.

What is YOUR goal in Iraq and how do YOU propose to achieve it? Who is it YOU think we need to kill to achieve our goals, whatever they are at this point???


jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Thanks for that graceful rant, Jack. You don't have a clue what you want, or what ought to be done. You just like to spew.

Basically what you said is 'I don't know, I'm waiting for them to tell me'. Now that is an educated vote.

Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Ben
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Senior Carp
Mik, a recognition that a war is headed to Hell in a handbasket and a frank admission that the best plan is not obvious yet is a thousand times more reasonable and productive a position than sticking one's metaphorical head in the sand and sticking with a plan that has proven itself wrong countless times over the past four years.
- Ben

"Playing 'bop' is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing." - Duke Ellington

bennieloohoo@gmail.com
Or you can just PM me. :P
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Jack Frost
Nov 8 2006, 08:52 PM
Jolly
Nov 8 2006, 10:13 PM
Jack Frost
Nov 8 2006, 07:06 PM
Mikhailoh
Nov 8 2006, 08:52 PM
Jack,

Now that they're in, specifically what changes do you want made in policy vis-a-vis Iraq?

I want an realistic articulation of our present goal and a plan to achieve it.

"Planting the seeds of democracy" went out the window more than a year ago and all we have done is "stay the course" in pursuit of that ghost.

jf

Oh, I dunno...gimme the Democrat's plan for Iraq.

No you don't know. None of you guys have a clue what we are doing in Iraq at this point, do you?

I can't give a Dem plan. I have no idea what it might be or should be. I said that.

I DO know that the dumb ****s who got us into this mess are finally getting out of the way and we have some reasonably intelligent people (Baker et al) looking at it, and for the first time in six years W seems ready to listen to someone other than Rumsfeld, Cheney and the rest of the neocon idiots.

Jolly, I don't have a plan. I defer to some new brains smarter than me. You have been "stay the course" for six years. Defend that stupid position before you ask me for a ****ing plan.

What is YOUR goal in Iraq and how do YOU propose to achieve it? Who is it YOU think we need to kill to achieve our goals, whatever they are at this point???


jf

I've explained a lot of this before, and you won't listen this time, but I'll humor you...

1. This is 2006. We have not been in Iraq 6 years. We have most certainly not had that amount of time to rebuild country.

2. Heard much about other terrorists in the Middle East lately? No, you haven't. Mostly because every knothead over there is headed, or already in Iraq. The United States military is fighting terrorists, but they're doing it in Baghdad, not Boston.

3. The Euphrates River Valley is one of the most strategic places on the face of the earth. It holds the key to a lot more than just Iraq.

4. The seeds of Democracy are doing pretty durn well if you get outside of Baghdad and the Tikrit area. Seen a lot of bad news about the Kurdish area of Iraq? Seen a lot of bad news about Southern Iraq? Western Iraq? So someting has gone right, somewhere.

5. The only two viable plans offered by the Dems (and you couldn't even name them) are Murtha's 'redeployment strategy". Won't work for two major reasons - 1) Some of the places he wants to redeploy will not allow U.S. troops on their soil, and B) It's essentially letting the Iraqis fight a full blown civil war, complete with armor, artillery and mass casualties. You won't have 20 Iraqis die in a day, Jack, you'll have 2000.

Biden's plan is the other major Dem initiative. IMNSHO, it is a recipe for an invasion of Iraq by Turkey in the north and Iran in the south. Again, IMNSHO, the secular Turks are going to take to the theocracy in Iran like oil to water. Best case scenario, the Turks kick the living crap out of the Iranians. Worst case scenario, some of the other Arab countries get in on the fight, a regional conflict spreads with India and Pakistan swapping nukes. The price of oil goes through the roof, and suddenly China and the U.S. start looking at each other through the gunsites, and Russia get super-nervous over all the ruckus down by her underbelly.



So waht you gonna do, Jack? I know your household hits a lot of the Left WIng blogosphere, and y'all can probably recite the Dem talking points by rote.

The problem with those talking points, Jack, is that there ain't no there, there.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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George K
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Finally
GOP Furious About Timing Of Resignation

By Patrick O'Connor
Donald Rumsfeld's abrupt resignation from the Pentagon the day after Republicans lost both chambers of Congress has infuriated some GOP officials on and off Capitol Hill.

Members and staff still reeling from Tuesday's rout are furious about the administration's decision to dump the controversial defense secretary one day after their historic loss, they said in a series of interviews about the election results.

President Bush announced Rumsfeld's resignation on Wednesday and named Bob Gates, a former CIA chief and president of Texas A&M University, as his replacement.

"The White House said keeping the majority was a priority, but they failed to do the one thing that could have made a difference," one House GOP leadership aide said Thursday. "For them to toss Rumsfeld one day after the election was a slap in the face to everyone who worked hard to protect the majority."

Exit polling suggested that an overwhelming majority of voters disapproved of the administration's handling of the war in Iraq, and members and aides were frustrated with the timing of the announcement because an earlier resignation could have given them a boost on the campaign trail, they believe.

"They did this to protect themselves, but they couldn't protect us?" another Republican aide said yesterday.

White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolten called outgoing House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) on Wednesday morning to notify him of the move, Hastert spokesman Ron Bonjean said Thursday. A spokesman for House Majority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) said the White House also notified the House leader before the news was announced.

Citing the various scandals that have roiled the Republican Congress, White House Press Secretary Tony Snow Thursday downplayed the impact of the war in Iraq on Tuesday's election.

"The voters said, 'You know what, we expect you to come to Washington and do the people's business,'" Snow said during his regular press briefing Thursday. "And when people lose sight of that, voters tend to remind them of the priorities. That's 10 seats right there."

The working relationship between Bush and congressional Republicans will be an interesting subplot for the next Congress as the GOP adjusts to its new role in the minority.

Relations between the president and Republicans on the Hill have frayed dramatically since he began his second term, with GOP lawmakers placing increased blame on the administration for its perceived inability to reach to members and staff on legislation, personnel moves and its interpretation of the legal code in the detention and interrogation of suspected terrorists.

Republicans cite the fumbled rollout of Social Security reform, the administration's continued support of comprehensive immigration reform and the president's insistence to defend American involvement in Iraq on the campaign trail.

There were also very public spats between Hastert and the administration over an FBI raid on Rep. William Jefferson's (D-La.) congressional office and a major split over the near acquisition of port operations in six major cities by a firm based in Dubai.

Bush met with Boehner, House Majority Whip Roy Blunt (R-Mo.), Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), and Senate Majority Whip Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) Thursday morning.
A guide to GKSR: Click

"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
**** 'em. They burned themselves at the stake.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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apple
one of the angels
Jolly
Nov 8 2006, 10:22 PM
Jack Frost
Nov 8 2006, 08:52 PM
Jolly
Nov 8 2006, 10:13 PM
Jack Frost
Nov 8 2006, 07:06 PM
Mikhailoh
Nov 8 2006, 08:52 PM
Jack,

Now that they're in, specifically what changes do you want made in policy vis-a-vis Iraq?

I want an realistic articulation of our present goal and a plan to achieve it.

"Planting the seeds of democracy" went out the window more than a year ago and all we have done is "stay the course" in pursuit of that ghost.

jf

Oh, I dunno...gimme the Democrat's plan for Iraq.

No you don't know. None of you guys have a clue what we are doing in Iraq at this point, do you?

I can't give a Dem plan. I have no idea what it might be or should be. I said that.

I DO know that the dumb ****s who got us into this mess are finally getting out of the way and we have some reasonably intelligent people (Baker et al) looking at it, and for the first time in six years W seems ready to listen to someone other than Rumsfeld, Cheney and the rest of the neocon idiots.

Jolly, I don't have a plan. I defer to some new brains smarter than me. You have been "stay the course" for six years. Defend that stupid position before you ask me for a ****ing plan.

What is YOUR goal in Iraq and how do YOU propose to achieve it? Who is it YOU think we need to kill to achieve our goals, whatever they are at this point???


jf

I've explained a lot of this before, and you won't listen this time, but I'll humor you...

1. This is 2006. We have not been in Iraq 6 years. We have most certainly not had that amount of time to rebuild country.

2. Heard much about other terrorists in the Middle East lately? No, you haven't. Mostly because every knothead over there is headed, or already in Iraq. The United States military is fighting terrorists, but they're doing it in Baghdad, not Boston.

3. The Euphrates River Valley is one of the most strategic places on the face of the earth. It holds the key to a lot more than just Iraq.

4. The seeds of Democracy are doing pretty durn well if you get outside of Baghdad and the Tikrit area. Seen a lot of bad news about the Kurdish area of Iraq? Seen a lot of bad news about Southern Iraq? Western Iraq? So someting has gone right, somewhere.

5. The only two viable plans offered by the Dems (and you couldn't even name them) are Murtha's 'redeployment strategy". Won't work for two major reasons - 1) Some of the places he wants to redeploy will not allow U.S. troops on their soil, and B) It's essentially letting the Iraqis fight a full blown civil war, complete with armor, artillery and mass casualties. You won't have 20 Iraqis die in a day, Jack, you'll have 2000.

Biden's plan is the other major Dem initiative. IMNSHO, it is a recipe for an invasion of Iraq by Turkey in the north and Iran in the south. Again, IMNSHO, the secular Turks are going to take to the theocracy in Iran like oil to water. Best case scenario, the Turks kick the living crap out of the Iranians. Worst case scenario, some of the other Arab countries get in on the fight, a regional conflict spreads with India and Pakistan swapping nukes. The price of oil goes through the roof, and suddenly China and the U.S. start looking at each other through the gunsites, and Russia get super-nervous over all the ruckus down by her underbelly.



So waht you gonna do, Jack? I know your household hits a lot of the Left WIng blogosphere, and y'all can probably recite the Dem talking points by rote.

The problem with those talking points, Jack, is that there ain't no there, there.

well said Jolly..

you really have a grasp
it behooves me to behold
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Daniel\
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Fulla-Carp
Jack Frost
Nov 8 2006, 05:06 PM
Mikhailoh
Nov 8 2006, 08:52 PM
Jack,

Now that they're in, specifically what changes do you want made in policy vis-a-vis Iraq?

I want an realistic articulation of our present goal and a plan to achieve it.

"Planting the seeds of democracy" went out the window more than a year ago and all we have done is "stay the course" in pursuit of that ghost.

jf

I feel the same. Or get out.

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David Burton
Senior Carp
Jolly – “3. The Euphrates River Valley is one of the most strategic places on the face of the earth. It holds the key to a lot more than just Iraq.”

I’d like more elaboration here, Jolly. You’ve mentioned other places as strategic too, what are they?

The rest of your analysis seems pretty good.
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