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How much does school matter?
Topic Started: Oct 19 2006, 09:01 PM (418 Views)
CrashTest
Pisa-Carp
Sure, at least a Bachelor's degree is important. How much does a Graduate and PhD matter in the real world? Is it really that necessary?
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Daniel\
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Fulla-Carp
Necessary for what?

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The 89th Key
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Depends on the job. The bottom line is getting a graduate degree is becoming more and more standard - although still not the norm as a bachelors is now.
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Nobody's Sock
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Fulla-Carp
Not much at all if you win the lottery.

Ka Ching!

"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
I suppose it depends on the field. In my rather particular circumstances I'd estimate that my masters and doctorate each more than doubled my earning potential, and I recouped the money lost from time off the market very quickly.

Crash, when I was your age someone told me to invest in myself until I was 40, and then I could reap the rewards for the rest of my life. That has proven very true in my circumstances. I suspect it is also true as a general principle.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
I think to get a "good" job these days, you need more than a Bachelor's. I will get my Master's, probably right after Bachelor's. Then I can get more money :smile:
And how are you today?
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ny1911
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Senior Carp
I'm a small business owner and my Ph.D. is a liability in business settings. I am viewed as an academic.

But I'm separating from my company and have been searching for jobs. I'm finding that many companies are tripping over themselves to attract me, but I attribute that to background, education, small business experience and citizenship.

In engineering, new engineers with bachelors don't do real engineering. A master's is really a must, IMO, even though the impact on salary is relatively low. Your responsibility level with a Master's puts you in a good position to break into higher earning categories.

In NY, you need to get a master's to be a public school teacher.
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
This doesn't get said enough:
School matters most at the beginning of a career.
But then it is up to YOU.

I've worked at the same huge corporation for 25 years.
After time lots of people with wimpy, or even without degrees, advance beyond people with impressive credentials.
Some people with high-level degrees from prestigious schools do not advance.

Yes of course, all other things being equal school is important.
But it is no guarantee, and there are many success stories about drop outs.

Sometimes I think people put too much importance on getting into school X and going too deeply into debt to do it.

YMMV.
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lb1
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Fulla-Carp
CrashTest
Oct 19 2006, 09:01 PM
Sure, at least a Bachelor's degree is important. How much does a Graduate and PhD matter in the real world? Is it really that necessary?

The degree will get you in the door first and support you for awhile, but sooner or later you will have to do it all on your own.

lb
My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Did I just see kenny and lb agree on something.... :biggrin:
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Sure.
We are both smart cookies! ;)

Smart cookie has good fortune.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
LWpianistin
Oct 19 2006, 11:17 PM
I think to get a "good" job these days, you need more than a Bachelor's. I will get my Master's, probably right after Bachelor's. Then I can get more money :smile:

That's entirely true in the sciences. It's pretty ridiculous, but your bachelor's is more or less treated as a "pass" that allows you to work. People assume you don't know atoms from Adam unless you have at least a Master's.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
kenny
Oct 20 2006, 10:14 AM
This doesn't get said enough:
School matters most at the beginning of a career.
But then it is up to YOU.

I've worked at the same huge corporation for 25 years.
After time lots of people with wimpy, or even without degrees, advance beyond people with impressive credentials.
Some people with high-level degrees from prestigious schools do not advance.

Yes of course, all other things being equal school is important.
But it is no guarantee, and there are many success stories about drop outs.

Sometimes I think people put too much importance on getting into school X and going too deeply into debt to do it.

YMMV.

What Kenny said. My degree results were pretty poor, to be honest, but nobody could care less at this point twenty years later. Maybe they're too busy worrying about my poor performance.

I think the modern world worries way too much about qualifications, many of which aren't really that useful. It's about time that engineering and science schools started easing up on the teaching of third order differential equations and starting preparing their graduates a little more for using the phone and writing in a language which approximated to English, IMO.


John D'Oh, FIOF

(Fellow of the Institute of Old Farts)
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Dave Spelvin
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Fulla-Carp
ivorythumper
Oct 19 2006, 10:59 PM
I suppose it depends on the field. In my rather particular circumstances I'd estimate that my masters and doctorate each more than doubled my earning potential, and I recouped the money lost from time off the market very quickly.

Crash, when I was your age someone told me to invest in myself until I was 40, and then I could reap the rewards for the rest of my life. That has proven very true in my circumstances. I suspect it is also true as a general principle.

Excellent post. Bears repeating. And the rewards are not only financial.
Posted Image
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
As long as you're not dead from liquor by the time you're 45. ;)
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
In music, unless you win some major competitions while you're an undergraduate, you need to be looking forward to doctoral studies. Especially in composition, some of your best opportunities for performance and exposure of new works will be through affilliation with a university, most likely one where you're teaching composition. Obviously, the more prestigious the school, the better the opportunities for high quality performances. To teach composition in a prestigious university music program, you will almost certainly need your doctorate.

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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
John "Old Fart" D'Oh
 
It's about time that engineering and science schools started easing up on the teaching of third order differential equations and starting preparing their graduates a little more for using the phone and writing in a language which approximated to English, IMO.


Indeed. It's more than that too, I think.

The demands we place upon college students is getting way out of hand. Working full time is not the same as being a full-time student. Students don't punch out at 5PM, they always have something that needs done. Many businesses actually expect you to have field experience before you graduate. Somehow, you're expected to throw in an unpaid internship into your 4-year undergrad education. (I say unpaid, because many are, but most of the ones that do pay, don't pay much at all; certainly nothing that would help support you.)

Academic work is often times very much removed from what's done in the work force. If the classes were taught in a more practical way, and if businesses eased up on their ridiculous expectations, it would do a lot to improve the disparity.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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AlbertaCrude
Bull-Carp
ny1911
Oct 20 2006, 05:57 AM

In engineering, new engineers with bachelors don't do real engineering. A master's is really a must, IMO, even though the impact on salary is relatively low. Your responsibility level with a Master's puts you in a good position to break into higher earning categories.


Doesn't work that way at all here. Here it is whether you have P.Eng designation. In order to obtain that, you need a minimum of a 4 year B.Sc in Engineering followed by a one, two or three year internship under an accredited P.Eng mentor. This qualifies you to take a series of Engineering Assoc. examinations at the end of your internship. Once you receive your steel ring (P.Eng designation) you then must keep your professional status current through annual Association accredited professional development courses in your field.

An M.Sc in Engineering or Ph.D in Engineering is actually a liability if you have not gone out into the workforce, served your internship and obtained your P.Eng designation after your undergrad degree.
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Moonbat
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Pisa-Carp
Quote:
 

It's about time that engineering and science schools started easing up on the teaching of third order differential equations and starting preparing their graduates a little more for using the phone and writing in a language which approximated to English, IMO.


My DPhil course seems up on that - current assignment is to write a 2000-2500 word essay in the style of a New-Sci article and a 10 minute presentation aimed at people who have some degree of scientific literacy but lack specialised knowledge.
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Oct 20 2006, 07:48 AM

What Kenny said. My degree results were pretty poor, to be honest, but nobody could care less at this point twenty years later. Maybe they're too busy worrying about my poor performance.

I think the modern world worries way too much about qualifications, many of which aren't really that useful. It's about time that engineering and science schools started easing up on the teaching of third order differential equations and starting preparing their graduates a little more for using the phone and writing in a language which approximated to English, IMO.


John D'Oh, FIOF

(Fellow of the Institute of Old Farts)

Unless you graduate at the top of your class or with straight A's, it really doesn't matter what your grades as as long as you pass. No employer ever asked for my transcripts.

We used to say that the A and B students wind up working for the C students.

Grades are no indicator of business success, but degrees are. From this site
Quote:
 
Education Impacts Employment and Income

A study by the US Census Bureau in 1999 shows the correlation between level of eduction and employment (vs. unemployment) and annual income. Professional degrees (medical doctors and lawyers, for example, both of which are technically doctorate degrees) have the highest payoffs in terms of both employment and income.

Full Time Employment      Education                    Annual Income

  83.6% w/full-time jobs      Professional degree              $109,600
  80.9% w/full-time jobs      Doctoral degree                      $89,400
  76.1% w/full-time jobs      Master's degree                      $62,300
  76.7% w/full-time jobs      Bachelor's degree                  $52,200
  74.9% w/full-time jobs      Associate's degree                  $38,200
  73.9% w/full-time jobs      Some college                          $36,800
  73.1% w/full-time jobs      High school graduate              $30,400
  65.3% w/full-time jobs      Not high school graduate:        $23,400

Education and Earnings Over a Lifetime
Multiplying this data over an average working life of 40 years, shows very impressive differences in lifetime earnings.

  Professional degree -        $4,384,000 in lifetime earnings
  Doctoral degree -            $3,576,000 in lifetime earnings
  Master's degree -            $2,492,000 in lifetime earnings
  Bachelor's degree -          $2,088,000 in lifetime earnings
  Associate's degree -        $1,528,000 in lifetime earnings
  Some college -                  $1,472,000 in lifetime earnings
  High school graduate -      $1,216,000 in lifetime earnings
  Not high school graduate - $936,000 in lifetime earnings

The average person with a Master's degree earns twice as much over a lifetime as the average person with a high school diploma ($2,492,000 vs. $1,216,000). Assuming that education costs $25,000/year and a Master's degree takes 2 years to earn, that additional $1,277,000 in income cost $150,000.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
What these statistics tell me is I've been incredibly bloody lucky, at least thus far, and trust me, that really isn't false modesty.

As far as transcripts go - the UK system is a little different, since the degree is given a class (First, Upper Second, Second, Third, Pass) which will often be asked for on a CV or resume. I got a third :redface:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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kenny
HOLY CARP!!!
Thank Glob I'm not average.
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maple
Junior Carp
Quote:
 
Assuming that education costs $25,000/year and a Master's degree takes 2 years to earn, that additional $1,277,000 in income cost $150,000.


that is about 5.5% annual rate of return
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ny1911
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Senior Carp
AlbertaCrude
Oct 20 2006, 08:42 AM
ny1911
Oct 20 2006, 05:57 AM

In engineering, new engineers with bachelors don't do real engineering. A master's is really a must, IMO, even though the impact on salary is relatively low. Your responsibility level with a Master's puts you in a good position to break into higher earning categories.


Doesn't work that way at all here. Here it is whether you have P.Eng designation. In order to obtain that, you need a minimum of a 4 year B.Sc in Engineering followed by a one, two or three year internship under an accredited P.Eng mentor. This qualifies you to take a series of Engineering Assoc. examinations at the end of your internship. Once you receive your steel ring (P.Eng designation) you then must keep your professional status current through annual Association accredited professional development courses in your field.

An M.Sc in Engineering or Ph.D in Engineering is actually a liability if you have not gone out into the workforce, served your internship and obtained your P.Eng designation after your undergrad degree.

Fortunately the EIT/PE designation has fallen out of favor here. Even at the BS level, most graduaes have some real practical training, but you can't cover the fundamental material in 4 years anymore with all of the H&SS and professional development courses. But my point is that you must work harder to get into a position where you get valuable on the job training with a BS. Get an MS and you open a lot of doors.
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.
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