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The Iraq War was a mistake; ...says this writer
Topic Started: Oct 19 2006, 07:51 AM (280 Views)
The 89th Key
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http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-...-opinion-center

I pretty much agree with him too....give it a read.
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
Quote:
 
Truth is truth. And the Iraq war was a mistake by the most obvious criteria: If we had known then what we know now, we would never have gone to war with Iraq in 2003.


I disagree with this statement.

Quote:
 
Washington's more important intelligence failure lay in underestimating what would be required to rebuild and restore post-Hussein Iraq. The White House did not anticipate a low-intensity civil war in Iraq, never planned for it and would not have deemed it in the U.S. interest to pay this high a price in prestige, treasure and, of course, lives.


I agree that the administration did not anticipate the course of events as they have unfolded. From what we have seen, I don't think they had a plan for it I think they figured they'd respond as needed. Perhaps because they were moving quickly there was not time to get past the plan for the defeat of Iraq's military. I disagree that the "cost" of the war if known would have dissuaded the administration from going forward. They felt they had no choice.

In retrospect, perhaps rather than an invasion we should have just targeted Saddam for elimination (and every subsequent leader that would not play nice).

The vote idea is interesting but I'm not sure the gov't would allow it - if they felt it ultimately lead to full-on civil war. Maybe what we should do is just withdraw from Baghdad and let those guys go at it. Most areas of the county are relatively pacified and doing well.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
What I don't understand is if they did underestimate the problems they're now having, why they did. I know that hindsight is always 20/20, and I'm honestly not trying to denigrate Bush or his administration, as clearly there are some very smart people working there, but wasn't the current situation the most likely outcome to an invasion?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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AlbertaCrude
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That's a bewildering question John.

When I was doing my grad studies I shared an office with a student who was working on a NATO funded research project dealing with various liberation scenarios in Eastern Europe and the USSR. One of the topics examined and analysed was how locals would react to occupation and liberation by NATO forces. Needless to say that it was believed that countries such as Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia and the Baltic States of Lithuania and Estonia would either greet NATO forces in open jubilation or at worst with cooperative but generally passive support.
Others namely East Germany, Bulgaria and the USSR (including Ukraine SSR) would be openly hostile and mount continuous and widespread partisan resistance against not only the NATO occupation forces but any and all forms of domestic collaboration.

I recall my office mate relating how difficult it was for politicians and a few uniformed staff officers on the NATO committee to comprehend that we would not be universally viewed and received as the indisputable mighty and righteous Angels of freedom and liberty we believed ourselves to be.
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mmmaestro007
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Middle Aged Carp
John D'Oh
Oct 20 2006, 04:45 AM
What I don't understand is if they did underestimate the problems they're now having, why they did. I know that hindsight is always 20/20, and I'm honestly not trying to denigrate Bush or his administration, as clearly there are some very smart people working there, but wasn't the current situation the most likely outcome to an invasion?

IMO it was a case of 'shoot first, ask questions later'
"Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of giving pleasure to thousands, and all you can do is scratch it!"

Sir Thomas Beechem, conductor
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
I can agree w/that. Time was of the essence. Having read a bit about the invasion of Japan at the end of WWII, terrible scenarios were proposed. Still, it had to be done. Just fortunate that they surrended before. Saddam was not as smart as Hirohito.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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IMO it was a case of 'shoot first, ask questions later'


Only an idiot would stand around talking if he needs to be shooting. If someone threatens me enough to make me think I need to shoot them, I don't have a single question that needs asking.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John D'Oh
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MAMIL

I'm not sure I buy the 'fools rush in' argument - the military must have considered the position that they are now in, even if the political spin-doctors didn't. THe big question is 'where do we go from here'? I think a withdrawal is, or at least should be, out of the question. My concern is that political expediency will force a withdrawal, and we'll end up with a final situation which is even worse than when Saddam was in charge.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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DivaDeb
HOLY CARP!!!
John D'Oh
Oct 19 2006, 06:18 PM
I'm not sure I buy the 'fools rush in' argument - the military must have considered the position that they are now in, even if the political spin-doctors didn't. THe big question is 'where do we go from here'? I think a withdrawal is, or at least should be, out of the question. My concern is that political expediency will force a withdrawal, and we'll end up with a final situation which is even worse than when Saddam was in charge.

I'm just repeating this because it's a very smart post.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
DivaDeb
Oct 19 2006, 08:42 PM
John D'Oh
Oct 19 2006, 06:18 PM
I'm not sure I buy the 'fools rush in' argument - the military must have considered the position that they are now in, even if the political spin-doctors didn't. THe big question is 'where do we go from here'? I think a withdrawal is, or at least should be, out of the question. My concern is that political expediency will force a withdrawal, and we'll end up with a final situation which is even worse than when Saddam was in charge.

I'm just repeating this because it's a very smart post.

Thanks Deb :) , but I really believe it's just stating the obvious. What I'm finding scary is that I'm seeing a few people who are normally quite a ways over to the political right saying that we should get out now. If this cross-section is indicative of the feelings of the country as a whole, then it's only a matter of time.

As anyone could tell you, I'm not exactly a big GOP-type supporter, but some sections of the Democratic Party, and on the left in general, have IMO behaved appallingly in trying to get us out of Iraq, with little thought or apparent care for what will follow. I'd like to emphasise I'm not talking about people such as Rick, who I think truly believe that it is the best option for us to follow, mistakenly in my opinion, but those politicians who are using the crisis in a cynical manner as a way of obtaining leverage against Bush.

OK, so maybe Bush made a mistake going in to Iraq, please let's not compound this by aborting the plan, and making a bad situation much worse.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
John D'Oh
Oct 19 2006, 06:48 PM
OK, so maybe Bush made a mistake going in to Iraq, please let's not compound this by aborting the plan, and making a bad situation much worse.

Agreed.

But now what?
Wag more
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I still do not think the Iraq invasion was a mistake. It is easy (too easy in fact) to disregard the the things that would have likely happened had we not followed through on UN SC Res. 1441 despite the willingness of the UN to punt or, more precisely, protect the status quo.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
It is quite easy to critcize after the fact. Quite another to be the guy having to make the decision.

I'm with JB. Hussein would have been trying his best to bedevil us had he been left in power.
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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Steve Miller
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Bull-Carp
But now what?
Wag more
Bark less
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The 89th Key
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John D'Oh
Oct 19 2006, 09:48 PM
DivaDeb
Oct 19 2006, 08:42 PM
John D'Oh
Oct 19 2006, 06:18 PM
I'm not sure I buy the 'fools rush in' argument - the military must have considered the position that they are now in, even if the political spin-doctors didn't. THe big question is 'where do we go from here'? I think a withdrawal is, or at least should be, out of the question. My concern is that political expediency will force a withdrawal, and we'll end up with a final situation which is even worse than when Saddam was in charge.

I'm just repeating this because it's a very smart post.

Thanks Deb :) , but I really believe it's just stating the obvious. What I'm finding scary is that I'm seeing a few people who are normally quite a ways over to the political right saying that we should get out now. If this cross-section is indicative of the feelings of the country as a whole, then it's only a matter of time.

As anyone could tell you, I'm not exactly a big GOP-type supporter, but some sections of the Democratic Party, and on the left in general, have IMO behaved appallingly in trying to get us out of Iraq, with little thought or apparent care for what will follow. I'd like to emphasise I'm not talking about people such as Rick, who I think truly believe that it is the best option for us to follow, mistakenly in my opinion, but those politicians who are using the crisis in a cynical manner as a way of obtaining leverage against Bush.

OK, so maybe Bush made a mistake going in to Iraq, please let's not compound this by aborting the plan, and making a bad situation much worse.

FYI - in case I'm being a bit self-centered...hopefully you dont believe that I'm holding the position that we should leave now. I think we should leave when the job is done...not when its best for the GOP or the DNC, but when its best for the WORLD.
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