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| The Late Ken Lay of Enron fame; is presumed innocent afterall... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 17 2006, 04:12 PM (820 Views) | |
| Steve Miller | Oct 19 2006, 08:20 PM Post #51 |
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Bull-Carp
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He should probably be bombed in to glass. |
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Wag more Bark less | |
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| Daniel\ | Oct 19 2006, 08:24 PM Post #52 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Exactly. Maybe he'll hang himself and do us all a favor. |
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| Jolly | Oct 20 2006, 06:20 AM Post #53 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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If he put all of his eggs in one basket, he's financially ignorant or financially stupid. In America, he has the right to do that - not that I would recommend it. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| John D'Oh | Oct 20 2006, 06:56 AM Post #54 |
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MAMIL
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If he was financially savvy he probably wouldn't have been scrubbing floors. We can't all be good at everything, and it's very unfortunate that those of who are dumb with money lose out because of scumbags like Ken Lay. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Phlebas | Oct 20 2006, 07:25 AM Post #55 |
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Bull-Carp
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Ingnorance and stupidity are part of it. No one's disputing that. You can't expect a machinist to be as savvy - or know as much inside information - as the CFO of the company. Do you expect workers who lost everything at least in part because they were lied to about the value of the company to say "aw shucks, I goofed," and walk away quietly? I think they have a right to complain and sue, as well as to recognize that they made mistakes themselves. There are securities lawsuits that are stupid and frivolous - the guy who wants to buy a new car with the dividends that were just cut by the board. The Enron suits were not frivolous. |
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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| Jolly | Oct 20 2006, 07:29 AM Post #56 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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Ok, so what do you want to do about it? The government can go after the money, and may recover some, after the lawyers get rich. But it is not going to replace what the man lost. Sure, I can feel sorry for him, but that doesn't put beans on the table. I don't care if one does scrub floors for a living, there is enough free information out there, in easy enough to understand language, that nobody - I repeat nobody - that is conservative with their money, puts those monies into high risk investments or into only one investment. If the poor guy is that dumb, he's better off with a nest egg of EE or I bonds, or a CUA or FDIC insured savings account. At the end of the day, you don't have to be super smart, or of significant means to retire decently...I'm not talking about Carribean cruise retirement, I'm talking about paying your bills and enjoying a moderate lifestyle. You have to be frugal, you have to work hard, and you need to make good decisions. The wonderful thing about America is that you have opportunity. I'd rather have the opportunity along with some of the risks, than to pay 80% taxes and have a nanny state. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Phlebas | Oct 20 2006, 07:37 AM Post #57 |
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Bull-Carp
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Uh Jolly, On Oct. 25th 2001 Lay sold 1/2 billion dollars worth of shares. The next day he sold more than 2 1/4 billion dollars worth of shares (if you don't believe me, look at the SEC filings - I have. While your at it look at Ruben, Fastow, and some others insider selling at around that time.). That's some of the money that the lawsuits were going after, and that I believe they 401(k) account holders had a right to go after. I'm was never in favor of a 9/11 fund type thing for them, but there's such a thing as trying to right a wrong. |
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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| Steve Miller | Oct 20 2006, 07:38 AM Post #58 |
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Bull-Carp
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Make sure the Social Security system remains exactly the way it is now. |
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Wag more Bark less | |
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| Jolly | Oct 20 2006, 07:39 AM Post #59 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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2%/yr ain't that great. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Steve Miller | Oct 20 2006, 07:42 AM Post #60 |
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Bull-Carp
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It ain't much, but it's all he's got and it's better than nuthin'. |
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Wag more Bark less | |
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| John D'Oh | Oct 20 2006, 07:45 AM Post #61 |
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MAMIL
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When Margaret Thatcher was busy reforming Britain to be much more of an entrepernerial type of place, with varying degrees of success, there was much ballyhoo about the fact that we all now have the opportunity to invest in the Stock Market, control our own destinies, etc. and in many ways this was true. I think it was Jeffrey Archer (one of her many minions, as well as a successful novelist and later prison inmate) who later admitted that they'd underestimated or forgotten that not everyone wants to be an entrepeneur. Sure, it's nice to have the opportunity, but there should be some degree of protection as well. I think people who are financially aware forget that some of us are total klutzes at this kind of stuff, and furthermore, that we don't want to get involved. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| George K | Oct 20 2006, 07:49 AM Post #62 |
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Finally
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A guide to GKSR: Click "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08 Nothing is as effective as homeopathy. I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles. - Klaus, 4/29/18 | |
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| Dave Spelvin | Oct 20 2006, 07:49 AM Post #63 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Social Security is an insurance policy against destitution later in life. It cannot be both that and an opportunity to quadruple your investment. 2% compounded for my entire working life works fine for me. I'll invest with Enron and various other pyramid schemes with my wife's savings. |
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| Daniel\ | Oct 20 2006, 09:34 AM Post #64 |
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Fulla-Carp
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That is what it is and people who want to get rid of it should have their agenda exposed for what it is. As far as privatizing Social Security, it might seem attractive but it would decrease defined benefits and cause a large amount of money to be diverted to Wall Street. In an era of eliminating defined pension benefits, it is not a good idea to gut Social Security. |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 20 2006, 10:00 AM Post #65 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I don't think anyone is arguing against going after the money. I think a valid part of the gov's role would be to go after the estate -- however the way the laws are written (I am assuming from the article) that requires a criminal conviction and since Lay's conviction cannot stand due to his death, the investors are SOL on that account. They still have civil recourse, and should pursue that vigorously. But at that point, how do you build an argument for further government involvement in a civil case? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Jolly | Oct 20 2006, 10:03 AM Post #66 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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I go back to what I wrote...sure, they can pursue the money, but what will be recovered will be pennies on the dollar if and when it ever trickles down to the people who really need it. A prudent person never, ever puts his eggs all in one basket. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Jolly | Oct 20 2006, 10:13 AM Post #67 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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A few scenarios... 25 year old, averages $30,000 over his working lifetime. Working lifetime defined as 40 years. His "investments" are the same as what is contributed to social security - 15% of his earnings, pre-tax 401K. At 2%, he gets $274,745. Assuming an average lifespan of 81 years, that means he gets $1431/month, even if his money earns absolutely nothing between the ages of 65-81. At 5%, which is easily and safely obtainable over the long haul, we're talking $558,212. That's $2907/month, again assuming his money makes nothing, ages 65-81. Lastly, at 8%, which may or may not be attainable ( I am a very conservative investor, he may be, also), we're talking $1,215,676. That's $6,332/month, same scenario as the two examples above. No Federal employee depends upon Social Security for the majority of their retirement, even though they pay into the system. Dumb puppies, eh? |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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