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| The Late Ken Lay of Enron fame; is presumed innocent afterall... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 17 2006, 04:12 PM (822 Views) | |
| kentcouncil | Oct 18 2006, 10:13 AM Post #26 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Did I ever say the employees were bad people? Of course not. Were they unwise, and did they let greed overcome their own best interests? Yes. I have an even lower opinion of Coulter than you do, by the way. But that's neither here nor there. And once again, addressing the freeze (from October 29 to November 13): no one, including executives, were allowed to sell any shares they had in their 401(k) plans during the freeze (though they could sell any shares they held outside their plans). During the freeze, the stock price declined down to $9.98 from $13.81. The stock had declined from $80 in the preceeding months. On October 16, Enron announced third quarter losses of $618 million. The SEC inquiry was first announced by Enron on October 22, and the stock dropped 20% that day. My point is, the warning signs were all there, and had been there for months. If you wanted to sell your shares during the time period of the freeze, you had already missed the boat. When did I make excuses for management? What I did say, am saying, will continue to say, is that the investors in Enron, both employees and others, ignored basic investment principles when they tossed their hats into the ring. They were the victims of fraud, true enough, and if they want to sue Lay's estate, Skilling, Fastow, what's left of Arthur Andersen, and the investment banks (and Pai, who truly deserves to have something bad happen to him), well, good luck. But it was within their power to avoid what happened to them. (Of course I watch M*A*S*H. The houseboy did it.) |
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It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't. - P.G. Wodehouse | |
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| Dave Spelvin | Oct 18 2006, 01:30 PM Post #27 |
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Fulla-Carp
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:lol: Thanks for clarifying your thoughts for me. And no, you don't have a lower opinion of Coulter than I do. On this we will have to disagree. |
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| Phlebas | Oct 19 2006, 07:35 AM Post #28 |
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Bull-Carp
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Sorry to come back to this, but the fact remains, analysts were pimping the stock well into it's decline. You can't equate the billions of dollars in Enron stock that Lay owned with what an employee had in their 401(k) account. Lay couldn't care about his 401(k) account, he was selling the stock that was granted through options and regular compensation. The 401(k) accounts were frozen on Oct. 26th. Ken Lay sold more than 2 1/4 billion dollars worth of Enron stock that day - according to SEC filings. Also, this interesting article came out:
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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| John D'Oh | Oct 19 2006, 07:36 AM Post #29 |
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MAMIL
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If I was an ex-Enron employee and I'd lost my 401K and someone accused me of being greedy, I think I'd smack him in the teeth, to be honest. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| lb1 | Oct 19 2006, 08:01 AM Post #30 |
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Fulla-Carp
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A couple years back we had a flood. A neighbor of mine had his hopuse totally destroyed in the flood and he didn't get anything because he had built in a known flood plain and he couldn't get flood insurance. He was labeled stupid for building where he did. 45 miles down the same river, in the same flood, there were several hundred homes flooded in a new housing addition. All of these people were compensated because it was declared a disaster area. They weren't stupid, they were poor victims, even though they knew they were building in a flood plain. Stupid is stupid, whether building a house or investing, whether alone or in a group. lb |
| My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09 | |
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| Phlebas | Oct 19 2006, 09:21 AM Post #31 |
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Bull-Carp
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I'm sure your neighbor wasn't consistently told by the insurance company, "No! It's safe! Stay there!" as the water was rising, or was not allowed to save any possessions from the flood, or..... We could beat the analogy to death if we wanted. |
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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| lb1 | Oct 19 2006, 10:03 AM Post #32 |
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Fulla-Carp
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If I was in the house and the water was rising around it, no one need tell me that it wasn't safe. I have worked for many companies, and the employees know before anyone when problems start arising. lb |
| My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09 | |
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| Jolly | Oct 19 2006, 10:20 AM Post #33 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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One of the greatest gifts a parent can give a child is opportunity. In America, that usually means education, and the lessons of what hard work can accomplish. As the black folks say, "Every pot needs to sit on its own bottom". |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Phlebas | Oct 19 2006, 10:24 AM Post #34 |
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Bull-Carp
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Thanks for telling me what it's like to work for a company. :rolleyes: No one is disputing whether the investors - of many types - made a mistake in buying Enron or not selling it sooner. History has judged that already. However, when the management, and stock analysts are telling the employees consistently as the price is going down, that it's still a good investment, they are also culpable. Also, lots of the employees of Enron who lost money were workers (machinists, etc. ) at companies like Portland General, and other utility companies that Enron bought, and they had no clue about energy trading and other operations Enron was involved in. Apparently the auditors and the investment bankers didn't either, so what you said doesn’t wash. |
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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| kentcouncil | Oct 19 2006, 10:39 AM Post #35 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I'm not excusing the analysts or the investment bankers, and unforunately at the time most people didn't understand that the in-house analysts for investment banks and stockbrokers were essentially salespeople looking out for their own interests rather than those of investors. But no analyst forces you to buy the stock he or she pimps. YOU are the one who is ultimately responsible for your investment decisions. And the point still is that, no matter what analysts said, there were enough warning signs, including the glaring evidence of Enron's stock price decline over the preceeding months, for any investor to bail out in advance of Enron's collapse. If you hold on to a stock as it declines from $90 to $13, it is perfectly reasonable to question your strategy. A good rule of thumb is that no more than 5% of the investments you choose for your retirement should consist of a single company's stock. There is more than enough free, good information available for people who want to invest wisely. Unfortunately, most people spend more time doing research for their next TV purchase than they do for their retirement fund. |
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It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't. - P.G. Wodehouse | |
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| kentcouncil | Oct 19 2006, 11:01 AM Post #36 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Not only would I accuse you of being greedy, I would accuse you of being foolish and uninformed as well, to be honest. You have my condolences, but next time, do your homework, and treat your investments with the seriousness they deserve. Look, it was the same with the tech and dot.com stocks. They were hyped into the stratosphere, analysts couldn't gush enough, we were all told it was the dawn of a new era where the old ways of valuating companies, the old economy in fact, no longer applied. Despite the fact that most of these companies never made a dime in profit and were badly run from the start, despite Greenspan's (admittedly cryptic) warnings, despite Warren Buffett's assertion that he didn't invest in these companies because he didn't understand how they made money (when the world's most successful investor, who has a winning track record extending back nearly 50 years and who is legendary for his ability to crunch a company's numbers, says something like this, you would think that would give most investors pause. Instead, he was derided for being a dinosaur.), people kept pouring money into the bubble, and then lost everything. The initial reaction was: "What happened?", followed quickly by: "Who do I sue?". Nonsense. When a person on the street comes up to you and asks for money, telling you he has a surefire way to make more money that makes absolutely no sense to you, and yet you give him your money, and you lose it... whose fault is it? |
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It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't. - P.G. Wodehouse | |
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| John D'Oh | Oct 19 2006, 11:03 AM Post #37 |
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MAMIL
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So you're telling me that the Nigerian money isn't going to arrive? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| kentcouncil | Oct 19 2006, 11:04 AM Post #38 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Oh no, Nigerian investments are safe. I'm waiting for my $30 million. Any day now. |
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It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't. - P.G. Wodehouse | |
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| lb1 | Oct 19 2006, 11:45 AM Post #39 |
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Fulla-Carp
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When I was 14 and 15 years old, I had a morning paper route. I always carried a couple extra copies in case I needed them or someone passing wanted to buy a copy. On my route was a guy (not a customer) who had been the CFO of a local company and had retired at 54 years old. I don’t know where he got the money to retire, but I assume that it was in part because of his investing in the stock market. I would pass his house on my way home at the end of my route and he would always be waiting on the porch and he would offer me a nickel (half price) for one of my extra copies so he could check the stock market page. When this guy was 57 he invested in a new start up company and got a great return. It was so good that he cashed in all of his other investments, his retirement, and even mortgaged his home, to invest in this company. He was so sure of this that he convinced friends and relatives to invest also. Two years later he had lost everything and the company was bankrupt. He got up one morning, showered, shaved, put on his best suit, and went out in the back yard and hung himself in an apple tree. I found him on my way home from my paper route. Everyone pitied him and said that poor old Ray was a victim and was taken advantage of. Ray was a cheap greedy a**hole and he was a victim of his own actions. People have to take responsibility for their actions; no one forces them to invest even if the experts are telling them it is a good thing. Greed is a vice and it has destroyed many people. |
| My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09 | |
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| Dave Spelvin | Oct 19 2006, 12:27 PM Post #40 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Do you think the SEC should be abolished? After all, if people should take personal responsibility for the risks they take, then why do we need the government interfering with a pure market? Won't the market be a better place when there's no oversight? Sure, there'll be scum out there, but fraud will be punished by the drop in stock price when stockholders stay away from dirty companies, after, of course, the criminals have sold out and moved to a private island somewhere. Those who invest in the fraudulent companies, well, tough luck. They should have diversified. Hopefully at least some of their shares will have some actual value. Hardcore, unbridled capitalism at its finest. |
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| Phlebas | Oct 19 2006, 12:38 PM Post #41 |
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Bull-Carp
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I don't have a problem with capitalism. I do, however, think it's funny that many people on the one hand expect that we should go for the "American Dream," by working, investing, and becoming prosperous; but call us greedy ***holes, when that's what we try to do. People do get suckered, and in many cases it's their own fault. My point is the scam artists shouldn't get a free ride. |
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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| lb1 | Oct 19 2006, 01:54 PM Post #42 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Your greedy when you make investments you can't afford to lose, and an a**hole when you whine about losing it and try to blame someone besides yourself. lb |
| My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09 | |
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| Steve Miller | Oct 19 2006, 06:05 PM Post #43 |
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Bull-Carp
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Let me make sure I have this right: Ken Lay manages to bamboozle the best minds on Wall Street while he steals the company blind - that makes him a hero. The guy who scrubbed the floors in the corporate palace for 30 years, all the while socking away part of his paycheck for retirement, only to find it all gone when it was too late to start over - he's greedy. Yeah, right. |
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Wag more Bark less | |
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| JBryan | Oct 19 2006, 06:13 PM Post #44 |
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I am the grey one
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I'm sorry, I missed the part where someone described Ken Lay as a hero. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Steve Miller | Oct 19 2006, 06:23 PM Post #45 |
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Bull-Carp
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Didja miss the second part too? |
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Wag more Bark less | |
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| JBryan | Oct 19 2006, 06:37 PM Post #46 |
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I am the grey one
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No, I got that. I was puzzled by the part my post should have clearly indicated. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Steve Miller | Oct 19 2006, 06:45 PM Post #47 |
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Bull-Carp
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He was smart enough to get all the money - unlike his greedy investors. Wouldn't you say that makes him a hero? |
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Wag more Bark less | |
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| JBryan | Oct 19 2006, 07:49 PM Post #48 |
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I am the grey one
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So, it is you who is making the case for him being a hero? |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 19 2006, 08:02 PM Post #49 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Thanks, JB, I was going to make the same query but got distracted by UFC Unleashed. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Daniel\ | Oct 19 2006, 08:11 PM Post #50 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I know. Right? That guy is a Loser. L for short. He was greedy AND stupid. |
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