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| The Late Ken Lay of Enron fame; is presumed innocent afterall... | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 17 2006, 04:12 PM (821 Views) | |
| Axtremus | Oct 17 2006, 04:12 PM Post #1 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6060798.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6060798.stm Prayer for the dead. |
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| John D'Oh | Oct 17 2006, 04:15 PM Post #2 |
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MAMIL
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If there's such a thing as reincarnation, let's hope he comes back as Richard Gere's pet hamster. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 17 2006, 04:18 PM Post #3 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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IIRC, this was the legal opinion immediately following his death. It seems strange that without the recourse to an appeal, the conviction cannot stand, but that's the law. No satisfaction for those who want justice in the abstract, let alone the millions in cold cash. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| kentcouncil | Oct 17 2006, 06:53 PM Post #4 |
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Fulla-Carp
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His estate is still subject to civil suits. Death is no protection from |
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It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't. - P.G. Wodehouse | |
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| Steve Miller | Oct 17 2006, 07:06 PM Post #5 |
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Bull-Carp
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Like the people who saw their retirement savings wiped out when Enron collapsed? |
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Wag more Bark less | |
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| kentcouncil | Oct 17 2006, 07:58 PM Post #6 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Yep. Just like them. Investors are motivated by greed, whether they hope to have enough to retire on or whether they hope to buy a new yacht to match their Ferrari. Investors in Enron hitched their wagons to a rising star, hoping to cash in big. For anyone who bothered to do more than just cursory research, they would have realized they were taking a huge gamble. The primary thing one should ask before investing in any company is: "How does this company make money?". NO ONE, not the journalists, the analysts, or even the people who ran it, could ever answer this basic question and describe how Enron actually did it. Why is Warren Buffett the most successful investor in history? Primarily because he does not let greed or wishful thinking affect his due diligence. What Skilling and Fastow (and to a lesser extent Lay) did was reprehensible, no question. But had potential investors in Enron done their homework and seen what a fraudulent house of cards it was (and the signs were there), they would have stayed away in droves. If you don't know what you're doing, do not invest. And if you do, be prepared to lose. |
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It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't. - P.G. Wodehouse | |
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| Steve Miller | Oct 17 2006, 08:37 PM Post #7 |
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Bull-Carp
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Wow. |
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Wag more Bark less | |
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| Larry | Oct 17 2006, 08:47 PM Post #8 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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What - do you think government should start guaranteeing your speculative financial investments for you too? |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Daniel\ | Oct 17 2006, 08:53 PM Post #9 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Right, and he's the second richest man in America and he gives his grandaughter nothing. 40 billion dollars and his grandaughter works as a maid. I'd say that's pretty greedy. Yes. As for Enron- if people lose their retirements because of crimes committed by their employer it's their fault? No way. |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 17 2006, 09:10 PM Post #10 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Sure, but should the government reimburse folks for losses due to crime? If they can seize assets, that's one thing, and I can see where that is the gov's role. But in this case, the way the law is written the investors don't seem to have that sort of redress against Lay's estate based on criminal law (I suppose they might go after the wife and try to prove collusion or such.) And that $43M would just about cover the attorneys' fee anyway, huh? ) |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| John D'Oh | Oct 18 2006, 02:12 AM Post #11 |
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MAMIL
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It's funny how Ken Lay is presumed innocent and the investors are presumed greedy. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| kentcouncil | Oct 18 2006, 03:57 AM Post #12 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Do you know why Warren Buffett has left relatively little money to his family? His rationale: "I wanted to leave enough money to (my children) so that they could accomplish anything, but not so much that they wouldn't have to do anything". Pretty sound reasoning, I would say, given what has happened to the fortunes of other wealthy families. The employees of Enron were hoping to get rich, just like everyone else who invested in it. Some of them were involved in its seamier machinations. Is it necessarily their fault that they were the victims of fraud? No. Is it their fault that they invested their money in Enron in the first place? Of course. |
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It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't. - P.G. Wodehouse | |
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| kentcouncil | Oct 18 2006, 04:00 AM Post #13 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Yes. If you don't understand the risks (including the risk that the company you invest in may be a run by a bunch of crooks, which regrettably happens quite frequently), you shouldn't be playing. I'm sorry if this is a shock to you. |
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It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't. - P.G. Wodehouse | |
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| kentcouncil | Oct 18 2006, 04:02 AM Post #14 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I've never met an investor who wasn't. Greed is the motivating force for investment in the vast majority of cases. Nothing wrong with that; greed is what capitalism is about, after all. I don't believe anyone was investing in Enron out of the goodness of their hearts. |
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It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't. - P.G. Wodehouse | |
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| Daniel\ | Oct 18 2006, 04:26 AM Post #15 |
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Fulla-Carp
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In my opinion the employees were investing in their retirement and the fact that this was Enron stock is because they believed in their company. However pathetic it seems now working at McDonalds at retirement age and living in poverty will be worse. They were working toward a comfortable retirement. They were not making speculative investments to get rich quick. Of course if they were victims of fraud it was through no fault of their own. |
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| John D'Oh | Oct 18 2006, 04:46 AM Post #16 |
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MAMIL
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I thought it was liberals who were supposed to feel sorry for the criminal, and blame the victim. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| TomK | Oct 18 2006, 04:58 AM Post #17 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Buffet's right. It's about building character in children. Giving them piles of money doesn't say, "I love you." You want them to be happy and there is no better way to be happy than to earn your own living look at what you did and say--"I did this." I'm no Warren Buffet--but with what I have I plan to give my kids the best education I can afford and give them a couple of bucks--maye a downpayment on a house when they get married and then they are off on their own. If they want to take over my busineess--they are welcome to it, but they have to buy if from me. (The money going to Catholic Charities.) |
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| Daniel\ | Oct 18 2006, 05:01 AM Post #18 |
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Fulla-Carp
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This is what we call "class warfare". The |
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| lb1 | Oct 18 2006, 05:43 AM Post #19 |
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Fulla-Carp
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| My position is simple: you jumped to an unwarranted conclusion and slung mud on an issue where none was deserved. Quirt 03/08/09 | |
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| Larry | Oct 18 2006, 06:07 AM Post #20 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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On Warren Buffet's grandaughter: you don't know both sides of that story, so you can't pass judgment on his actions. What if the family has had problems with her, a history of drug use, can't handle money, won't be responsible, etc. It very well may be that he *has* given her money in the past, and she's proven herself incapable of handling it. I seriously doubt that a man with that kind of money is concerned about the paltry sum of supporting a grandchild. I would think he's giving her something more valuable than money - he's teaching her to be self reliant. As to the "Ken Lay is presumed innocent and the investors are presumed greedy" thing.... pointing out the fact that the employees are responsible for their own decisions in no way means you're letting Lay off the hook. His "innocence" is a legality - he's still probably guilty. Those employees should have had more sense than to put all their retirement money into one stock. That simply isn't sound financial planning, and they have no one to blame but themselves for making such a boneheaded decision. I assure you that if Enron had actually paid all that money out to them *before* it collapsed, the line of employees giving it back would be extremely short. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Phlebas | Oct 18 2006, 06:23 AM Post #21 |
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Bull-Carp
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I don't have much sympathy for regular investors who bought Enron. They rolled the dice, and lost. I do have some sympathy for the people who held lots of Enron stock in their 401(k) accounts, and lost it. Why? Because Enron froze the 401(k) accounts at precicely the time the stock was taking a nosedive. The executives of the company bailed out of millions of dollars of Enron while they would not allow their employees to sell. It's pretty dumb to put a lot of your 401(k) assets into company stock, but to freeze the accounts, and not allow the employees to sell while the stock is tanking, and Lay et al are selling, is not exactly in the spirit of capitalism, and is not fair. How Lay, and others cooked the books to make themselved rich was a crime. How investment bank analysts pimped the stock when they should have known better was negligent, and they should be sued. |
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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| Larry | Oct 18 2006, 06:30 AM Post #22 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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You do make some good points. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| TomK | Oct 18 2006, 06:57 AM Post #23 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Excellent points. There are different kinds of invesrtors. |
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| kentcouncil | Oct 18 2006, 08:51 AM Post #24 |
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Fulla-Carp
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This is an untruth that has been widely circulated by Enron's former employees. Enron's 401(k) accounts were frozen for a period of 11 days while Enron was contracting the management of its 401(k) accounts to an outside company (a recognized and accepted business practice), during which time the price of the stock declined about 25%. The company's stock had been falling for MONTHS prior to this, however, losing about 80% of its value prior to the freeze. At no other time were employees forbidden from selling or exchanging their shares, nor was the freeze initiated to give executives time to dump their stock. The employees had many investment choices for their 401(k) accounts and were not restricted to Enron (though Enron would match their contributions with shares of Enron); Enron's 401(k) policy for its employees was about average for the industry, and a lot let restrictive than other well known large companies. Many employees have admitted that, dazzled by Enron's success, they ignored the rule of diversifying their holdings and committed themselves 100% to Enron. (edit: long overdue disclaimer: I have never invested in or had any business dealings with Enron, nor have I ever advised any of my clients to invest in Enron.) |
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It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't. - P.G. Wodehouse | |
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| Dave Spelvin | Oct 18 2006, 09:15 AM Post #25 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Kent- This appears to be the playbook for your argument: Enron Explained (?) In it, the author cites Ann Coulter as follow:
As usual, Coulter pours on the bad faith. The employees must be bad people because they were victimized by a fraud? How does she (if he's summarizing her argument correctly) know what the employees were thinking? If I were an employee, I'd be angry that my saving were gone and that my job was gone. Coulter is an oozing sore. Then there's this about the freeze: So let me get this straight: The announcement of the SEC investigation occurred during the lockdown, so the employees couldn't divest. Sounds like they have quite a lot to complain about, and properly so. Management was selling off stock before that, as management will often do, and were even permitted to sell during the lockdown. But until the SEC investigation was made public, the employees didn't know that they were being lied to. They made the mistake of believing management, which had done so well for them in the past. I think you're making excuses for management. These guys should be in jail and make full restitution. It's outrageous that Lay, who was found guilty, should be allowed to bequeath his ill-gotten booty (or ill-booten gotty, if you watch MASH) to his family. He came by this money fraudulently and he should be revived and thrown in the klink where he belongs. |
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