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Kick another brick out of the wall.
Topic Started: Oct 13 2006, 08:48 AM (196 Views)
Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
Time for color/gender-based discrimination in education to end:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/LaShawn..._discrimination
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
If you were in charge of a 300 mile race ... and you allowed one group of runners to wear sneakers, but told another group they had to race barefoot ... you wouldn't be able to make it all fair by announcing, "Stop where you are. For the rest of the race, everyone can wear sneakers. On your mark, get set, go!"

That said, I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that affirmative action is an idea whose time has come, and gone. I don't know if it's time to end affirmative action, but, if it isn't, the time isn't too far away.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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The 89th Key
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I'm a white male and I get discriminated against more at work and during contracts than any other demographic cohort I know.

AA should have ended a long time ago. It's racism, pure and simple and MLKjr would have never supported it.
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TomK
HOLY CARP!!!
QuirtEvans
Oct 13 2006, 01:05 PM
If you were in charge of a 300 mile race ... and you allowed one group of runners to wear sneakers, but told another group they had to race barefoot ... you wouldn't be able to make it all fair by announcing, "Stop where you are.  For the rest of the race, everyone can wear sneakers.  On your mark, get set, go!"

That said, I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that affirmative action is an idea whose time has come, and gone.  I don't know if it's time to end affirmative action, but, if it isn't, the time isn't too far away.

As person that hires Blacks by the truckload:

Affirmative action gives a crappy free ride to Blacks till they hit the real world, and then it's just low paying jobs or the underworld. Yea--some make it fine, but I hire HS grads all day long to haul #50 bags of chemicals from here to there. They can barely communicate. The live in a hip-hop culture that's really far removed from real productive American society.

They need to fail and learn from their failure a lot earlier then they do now, so that they don't become illiterate 18 year old with all sorts of academic credentials. I'll say this: I see their embarrassment, their frustration with what they've been taught when I interview them.

They've been screwed, by Black culture--mostly, but also by the affirmative action that makes such things possible.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
QuirtEvans
Oct 13 2006, 11:05 AM
If you were in charge of a 300 mile race ... and you allowed one group of runners to wear sneakers, but told another group they had to race barefoot ... you wouldn't be able to make it all fair by announcing, "Stop where you are. For the rest of the race, everyone can wear sneakers. On your mark, get set, go!"

That said, I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that affirmative action is an idea whose time has come, and gone. I don't know if it's time to end affirmative action, but, if it isn't, the time isn't too far away.

It's not a 300-mile race, it's a race that never ends.

Affirmative action has done more to hold the black man back than most will ever realize. As Tom has pointed out, at some point you have to produce.

And the people I feel most sorry for, are the black kids who excel, and keep hearing the stuff about "they're where they are because they're black".

Pour the feed out in the trough, give all the piggies equal access, and let it be root hog, or die.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Jolly
Oct 13 2006, 01:40 PM
QuirtEvans
Oct 13 2006, 11:05 AM
If you were in charge of a 300 mile race ... and you allowed one group of runners to wear sneakers, but told another group they had to race barefoot ... you wouldn't be able to make it all fair by announcing, "Stop where you are.  For the rest of the race, everyone can wear sneakers.  On your mark, get set, go!"

That said, I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that affirmative action is an idea whose time has come, and gone.  I don't know if it's time to end affirmative action, but, if it isn't, the time isn't too far away.

It's not a 300-mile race, it's a race that never ends.

Affirmative action has done more to hold the black man back than most will ever realize. As Tom has pointed out, at some point you have to produce.

And the people I feel most sorry for, are the black kids who excel, and keep hearing the stuff about "they're where they are because they're black".

Pour the feed out in the trough, give all the piggies equal access, and let it be root hog, or die.

Said like a man who got a big head start in the race, and wants to preserve it at all costs.

As I said, I think affirmative action is nearing the end of its useful life. The costs either already outweigh the benefits, or soon will. But make no mistake, affirmative action had an incredibly important purpose, and we can phase it out without downplaying why it was important and necessary in the first place.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
QuirtEvans
Oct 13 2006, 12:47 PM
Jolly
Oct 13 2006, 01:40 PM
QuirtEvans
Oct 13 2006, 11:05 AM
If you were in charge of a 300 mile race ... and you allowed one group of runners to wear sneakers, but told another group they had to race barefoot ... you wouldn't be able to make it all fair by announcing, "Stop where you are.  For the rest of the race, everyone can wear sneakers.  On your mark, get set, go!"

That said, I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that affirmative action is an idea whose time has come, and gone.  I don't know if it's time to end affirmative action, but, if it isn't, the time isn't too far away.

It's not a 300-mile race, it's a race that never ends.

Affirmative action has done more to hold the black man back than most will ever realize. As Tom has pointed out, at some point you have to produce.

And the people I feel most sorry for, are the black kids who excel, and keep hearing the stuff about "they're where they are because they're black".

Pour the feed out in the trough, give all the piggies equal access, and let it be root hog, or die.

Said like a man who got a big head start in the race, and wants to preserve it at all costs.

As I said, I think affirmative action is nearing the end of its useful life. The costs either already outweigh the benefits, or soon will. But make no mistake, affirmative action had an incredibly important purpose, and we can phase it out without downplaying why it was important and necessary in the first place.

Nope, don't think so....especially in the early years, I think my family can compare poor bonafides with just about anybody.

Unless you can vouch for not having electricity or running water until the mid-1950's.

When people don't give it to you, you learn how to scratch.

We are depriving these people, because we are not teaching them how to succeed, only teaching them how to game an outdated system.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Oct 13 2006, 10:05 AM
If you were in charge of a 300 mile race ... and you allowed one group of runners to wear sneakers, but told another group they had to race barefoot ... you wouldn't be able to make it all fair by announcing, "Stop where you are. For the rest of the race, everyone can wear sneakers. On your mark, get set, go!"

That said, I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that affirmative action is an idea whose time has come, and gone. I don't know if it's time to end affirmative action, but, if it isn't, the time isn't too far away.

I'm not following your point here, Quirt. If "Title VII of the Civil Rights Act prohibits discrimination in employment on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.", and scholarships, grants, work study, graduate assistant positions etc are even loosely "employment" (someone is getting paid to do something), then how can you defend the practice at all of discriminating on the basis of race etc?

It seems like special pleading to me.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
ivorythumper
Oct 13 2006, 02:07 PM
QuirtEvans
Oct 13 2006, 10:05 AM
If you were in charge of a 300 mile race ... and you allowed one group of runners to wear sneakers, but told another group they had to race barefoot ... you wouldn't be able to make it all fair by announcing, "Stop where you are.  For the rest of the race, everyone can wear sneakers.  On your mark, get set, go!"

That said, I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that affirmative action is an idea whose time has come, and gone.  I don't know if it's time to end affirmative action, but, if it isn't, the time isn't too far away.

I'm not following your point here, Quirt. If "Title VII of the Civil Rights Act prohibits discrimination in employment on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.", and scholarships, grants, work study, graduate assistant positions etc are even loosely "employment" (someone is getting paid to do something), then how can you defend the practice at all of discriminating on the basis of race etc?

It seems like special pleading to me.

It's called making up for past inequities.

There were decades upon decades of Constitutional violations. Sometimes, two wrongs DO make a right.

By the way, you're making your side of the argument poorly. No one rationally tries to argue that a student grant is employment. There are better statutes to cite, including the civil rights laws. Not to mention the Fourteenth Amendment.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
sins of the father and all that huh Quirt?

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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Kincaid
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HOLY CARP!!!
IMO affirmative action should have been shelved in the 80's.
Kincaid - disgusted Republican Partisan since 2006.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
QuirtEvans
Oct 13 2006, 12:33 PM
ivorythumper
Oct 13 2006, 02:07 PM
QuirtEvans
Oct 13 2006, 10:05 AM
If you were in charge of a 300 mile race ... and you allowed one group of runners to wear sneakers, but told another group they had to race barefoot ... you wouldn't be able to make it all fair by announcing, "Stop where you are.  For the rest of the race, everyone can wear sneakers.  On your mark, get set, go!"

That said, I have a lot of sympathy for the idea that affirmative action is an idea whose time has come, and gone.  I don't know if it's time to end affirmative action, but, if it isn't, the time isn't too far away.

I'm not following your point here, Quirt. If "Title VII of the Civil Rights Act prohibits discrimination in employment on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.", and scholarships, grants, work study, graduate assistant positions etc are even loosely "employment" (someone is getting paid to do something), then how can you defend the practice at all of discriminating on the basis of race etc?

It seems like special pleading to me.

It's called making up for past inequities.

There were decades upon decades of Constitutional violations. Sometimes, two wrongs DO make a right.

By the way, you're making your side of the argument poorly. No one rationally tries to argue that a student grant is employment. There are better statutes to cite, including the civil rights laws. Not to mention the Fourteenth Amendment.

I also listed work study and assistantships which are clearly "employment". Once again, if you have the need to score points -- which is truly pathetic -- knock yourself out.

The simple fact is that money is being given to X to do Y. One person is more entitled to that money because of race, which violates the clear intent of Title VII.

As for the two wrongs argument -- that is bad jurisprudence. Either follow the law as it is framed or ignore it for your political agenda and agree that is it special pleading. You have not shown a relevant difference between whites and blacks in 21st century American academia. You are of course entitled to make a racist argument to that effect, so please proceed.

If you personally want to redress the inequities of the past, then give to very good groups such as the United Negro College Fund. But don't have a double standard in matters of public policy. That is just bad governance.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
QuirtEvans
Oct 13 2006, 01:33 PM
It's called making up for past inequities.

Can't be done. The past is the past. The present is the present and all we have is now.

QuirtEvans
Oct 13 2006, 01:33 PM
There were decades upon decades of Constitutional violations. 


STFW?

QuirtEvans
Oct 13 2006, 01:33 PM
Sometimes, two wrongs DO make a right. 


WRONG!

QuirtEvans
Oct 13 2006, 01:33 PM
By the way, you're making your side of the argument poorly.  No one rationally tries to argue that a student grant is employment.  There are better statutes to cite, including the civil rights laws.  Not to mention the Fourteenth Amendment.


Exactly!

AA always has been and always will be discrimination.
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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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apple
one of the angels
they should replace affirmative action w/ free education for the poor.
it behooves me to behold
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Mark
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HOLY CARP!!!
Nothing is "free" apple.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
apple
Oct 13 2006, 07:31 PM
they should replace affirmative action w/ free education for the poor.

With the cost of college today, that would be most of us.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Jolly
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Geaux Tigers!
apple
Oct 13 2006, 08:31 PM
they should replace affirmative action w/ free education for the poor.

They already have free education through grade 12.

The problem in many places is the schools. But I think it can be a good debate on what makes a good school, since money seems to have very little impact on the quality of education past a certain point.

I can't speak authoritatively about the rest of the country, but if you come from a poor family in Louisiana, here's what you do to go to college: 1)achieve a 3.5 GPA in high school, 2) make an ACT score of 26 or better, 3) make sure you take the TOPS curricula in high school (which is not hard to do, schools are manadted to make the classes available), 4) attend a university, public or private within the state.

Meet those criteria, and college in public university will cost you $0. Between TOPS+, scholarships, Pell grants and Federally subsidized campus employment, it pretty much covers it all.

Want to set your sites a bit higher? With the above criteria, you can still attend a private school such as Tulane, and not be beyond the realm of reason in debt when you graduate.
The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
A white kid growing up poverty striken in Appalachia has no more advantage in life than his overty striken black friend who grew up in the next hollow over.

A poverty striken black kid growing up in the hood is no more disadvantaged than the poverty striken white kid living in the next apartment.

Any form of publicly funded helping hand up in this country should be based on need, not skin color.
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
apple
Oct 13 2006, 10:31 PM
they should replace affirmative action w/ free education for the poor.

They already have free education available to them. In fact, they are required by law to attend these free institutions, just like everyone else. Making free education available isn't the problem. Getting some people to take advantage of it is the problem.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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