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| Why the Islamic Terrorists Hate the USA?; "who we are" or "our foreign policy? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 13 2006, 02:41 AM (2,048 Views) | |
| John D'Oh | Oct 16 2006, 04:44 AM Post #76 |
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MAMIL
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Of the top of my head, and picked deliberately to avoid recent events: You should have joined in the fight against German imperialism in 1914 and particularly in 1939. Joseph Kennedy was a very stupid choice for British ambassador, at a very critical time for Anglo-American relations and for Europe. Vietnam was badly handled. American isolationism in the 1930s was disastrous for the world economy. As they always say, Hindsight is 20/20, but I don't think American policy has been any better than anybody else's, to be honest. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Oct 16 2006, 04:58 AM Post #77 |
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Senior Carp
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How dare you insult my good peoples and the great and peaceful Mohamed! :lol: |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| Larry | Oct 16 2006, 05:01 AM Post #78 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Are you claiming to be an Iraqi for real? Then I have a question. Do you know why they don't circumsize Iraqis? Because there's no end to those pricks. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Oct 16 2006, 05:02 AM Post #79 |
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Senior Carp
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And HOW DARE you criticise me for moving from the East to the Westcountry! May Allah turn your earholes into assholes so you **** all over your shoulders from Christmas to Ramadan. |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Oct 16 2006, 05:04 AM Post #80 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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My point, John, is not that American policy has been any better or any worse than anyone else's. But I think it can reasonably be argued that it has had more influence than most, and that we've managed not to bung the world up too badly. The Cold War was resolved without a nuclear holocaust, or even a major war, and the world economy is growing. There are more representative governments in the world than ever. To wonder about what would have happened had we done this or that? That way lies madness. Certainly there have been mistakes and corrections of course, but it is difficult to point to anything and say 'boy, the US really screwed the pooch there!'. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| kentcouncil | Oct 16 2006, 07:41 AM Post #81 |
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Fulla-Carp
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There are a number of statements that you make which I would question. Firstly, of course the religion is the enemy. The religion itself declares war on those who don't adhere to it. As for World War III... we face a detemined enemy united by an ideology dedicated to destroying us and our way of life (and the enemy is quite clear and unapologetic about this), attacking us on multiple fronts throughout the world. We don't need to declare WWIII; the enemy already has. I also question the idea of "peaceful" Muslims... how peaceful can moderate Muslims be when they almost all refuse to condemn the actions of their extremist brethren and often lend them material support? (The main exception being a number of very courageous Muslim and formerly-Muslim women who have experienced the oppression of Islam first-hand and are now speaking out against it.) Witness the recent refusal of "moderate" Muslim leaders in Britain to condemn the London subway attacks of a year ago, saying it would be improper for them to speak out against fellow Muslims. And religions CAN be wiped out; history is littered with dead religions, and Islam aspires to reduce Christianity and Judaism to the same state. And why shouldn't we want to wipe out a religion, when it presents an extreme danger to us, as in the case of the Japanese government's actions against Aum Shinri Kyo.
You are suffering from cognitive dissociation. In the first part of your statement, you state one thing, and in the second part, you attempt to deny it. It IS Islamic clerics, isn't it? The Koran DOES advocate death and destruction to the infidel, doesn't it? The clerics ARE preaching to their followers in the context of their religion, correct? So WHY on earth is Islam not the problem? Why is it so hard for you to accept that, when the clerics themselves will freely tell you they are following their religious imperative? What other proof do you need... or is it easier for you to believe that it's all our (or the US's) fault?
Of course there are. A notorious example is the following: If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God... (Deuteronomy 13: 7-11) No doubt the sad history of human violence would be a lot less sad if the Koran and the Bible had never been written. But the original point was that the Koran is, contrary to what "moderate" Muslims insist, not a book of peace, but rather an exhortation to holy war.
The religious wars between Islam and the West have been going on for far longer than just the 20th century, and each side has a long litany of grievances. However, if you want to look at recent history, P. Berman points out that: "... no country on Earth has fought so hard and consistently as the United States on behalf of Muslim populations" including: the first Gulf War fought in defense of Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, followed by a decade of air protection for northern Iraqi Kurds and southern Iraqi Shia; the intervention in Somalia to relieve famine; the intervention in the Balkans to protect Bosnians and Kosovars from Christian Serbs. Unfortunately, when Muslims deign to acknowledge these actions, they see them as yet more examples of Muslim "humiliation". |
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It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't. - P.G. Wodehouse | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Oct 16 2006, 07:56 AM Post #82 |
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Senior Carp
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Kent is absolutely right. Religion is the enemy, an enemy bound like any other to the full understanding that if they had have been brought up on the other side, they would be, without question, batting for the other side. The fact that this does not stop them represents the true danger religion poses to humankind. They don't even need to be right, just believe. |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 16 2006, 09:03 AM Post #83 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Maestro said "religion is not the enemy", which I agree with. Kent said "The religion is the enemy", which I don't fully agree with but he makes a good case. But he did not say "Religion is the enemy". So how you can think he is absolutely right when you distort the meaning of his words -- those definite articles are pretty important -- is beyond me. If you want to make a diatribe against religion in general, knock yourself out, but don't go misquoting others to make your case. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| John D'Oh | Oct 16 2006, 09:11 AM Post #84 |
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MAMIL
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Knobheads are the enemy, not religion. Those members of the human race that can't deal with others who have an opposing view to their own, and feel obliged to kill them. It doesn't have to be a religion, it can be an ideology such as National Socialism or Communism, or a belief in racial superiority, or tribal survival, such as in Rwanda. Attempting to lay the blame for all the worlds troubles at the door of religion is simplistic in the extreme. Saddam Hussein wasn't a religious leader, was he? He sure was a knobhead, though. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Oct 16 2006, 10:06 AM Post #85 |
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Senior Carp
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You're probably right, i shoehorned in my own views a little there. Apologies to Kent, although i was enjoy his writing more than agreeing or disagreeing. |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| kentcouncil | Oct 16 2006, 10:19 AM Post #86 |
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Fulla-Carp
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To be fair to Wacki, IT, my original quotation of Sam Harris DID state: "Religion is the enemy." Harris and Dawkins, as you know, are both militant atheists (Harris from a philosophical standpoint, Dawkins from a scientific one), and I'm not quite in total agreement with them, hence MY addition of the determiner "The". I don't subscribe, as Harris does, to the idea that religion is the source of all evil; John D'Oh's post points this out well (though it could be argued that the Nazi's persecution of Jews had its roots in anti-Semitic Christian prejudice). |
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It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't. - P.G. Wodehouse | |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 16 2006, 10:42 AM Post #87 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Agreed (to both Kent and Wacki). |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Oct 16 2006, 11:41 AM Post #88 |
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Senior Carp
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This is another subject Kent, that when approached, opens up questions of Specific theist prejudices sitting covertly, undetected, in the so called atheist beliefs of meglomaniacs such as Stalin or Hitler. The belief that these people murder through the structure of atheist thinking, is accepted synonymity by theists and not circumstantial in any way. Especially in those faiths that systematically exploit personal guilt, to motivate us to be good under the guidance of devine surveillance. |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| John D'Oh | Oct 16 2006, 11:53 AM Post #89 |
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MAMIL
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To use the fact that atheists commit atrocities as a way to criticise atheists is as misguided as to attempt to use the fact that religions have done so as a way of criticising religious people. The statement that Katherine Hepburn was an atheist and didn't murder 10 million people is as foolish as pointing out that the present Archbishop of Canterbury hasn't had anyone burned at the stake, not yet at least. People suck. Hasn't everybody noticed? Hitler didn't kill Social Democrats because of hidden theist tendencies. He did it because he was a bloodthirsty guttersnipe, to quote Churchill. There's a pretty strong likelihood that he killed 7 million Jews because he caught syphilis from a Jewish prostitute, although of course that doesn't explain how he persuaded all of his friends to join in so enthusiastically. Religion is not the root of all evil. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 16 2006, 12:33 PM Post #90 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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So your retort to one erroneous sweeping statement is to make another one? :lol: |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Oct 16 2006, 03:43 PM Post #91 |
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Senior Carp
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What the evidence points to, is that theism is the reasoning behind murder and punishment, whereas atheism is merely circumstantial in the usual suspects of the murderous kind, who are also *believed* to be atheists. The argument being that: If you agree that, in the absence of God, you would 'commit robbery, rape and murder', you would reveal yourself as an immoral person, 'and we would be well advised to steer a wide course around you'. If on the other hand, you admit that you would continue to be a good person even when not under devine surveillance, you have fatally undermined your claim that God is necessary for us to be good. |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Oct 16 2006, 03:45 PM Post #92 |
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Senior Carp
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Sorry mate i'm not with you here? |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Oct 16 2006, 03:45 PM Post #93 |
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Senior Carp
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Sorry mate i'm not quite with you? |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Oct 16 2006, 03:52 PM Post #94 |
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Senior Carp
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Yeah but the point is that if the Archbishop wanted to burn someone at the stake he'd have the book with the information on why and how he should go ahead with the plan (as i'm sure the inquisition did) But Little Kathy would have trouble convincing anyone on the grounds that she has no superstitious beliefs, that her atheism means 10 million should die. |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| TomK | Oct 16 2006, 04:03 PM Post #95 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Pirate talk. Grrrr! :lol: |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Oct 16 2006, 04:20 PM Post #96 |
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Senior Carp
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Well shiver me Justin Timberlake, if it aint Tom K throwing his patch in the ring so to speak. Yo ho ho and a bottle of Jack D me hearty yer wee scallywag you. Splice the main brace and set sail for Blighty we're drinking piss again for supper yer lilly livered cod kicker. Or hello, how are you? As we prefer to say now. (we're so much busier) |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 16 2006, 04:28 PM Post #97 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I think a strong case can be made that the polytheism expressed in the Code of Hammurabi is rather circumstantial to the laws promulgated. The laws of ancient Roman and ancient Greece, while perhaps invoking the justice of the gods, does not rely on the authority of the gods either. It does not take a theistic view to think that people ought to be punished, imprisoned, and even put to death for crimes such as murder or high treason. You seem to be taking a rather revisionist view of things here -- the matter of "civilized incarceration" being a very late development that is as much based in the Christian view of the intrinsic goodness and redeemability of people as it is in the thought of restoring people to the fullness of the Enlightenment Social Contract through "paying one's debt to society". I also think you have set up a false dilemma between goodness and divine surveillance. I can't speak for other systems, but the Catholic one states positively that mankind is not evil, and can certainly act toward the good in the natural state -- the evidence and the arguments of of the socratic tradition carried great weight in the formation of Christian morality based much more on the correspondances to the observable human condition than to any divine appeal. One the other hand, are the atheism of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Robespierre and the other architects of the Grand Terror truly "circumstantial" to the atrocities that thay committed? I can see why its in your interest to argue that, but I am not convinced. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 16 2006, 04:35 PM Post #98 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Because I am not convinced at all that religion exploits guilt, nor that the threat of divine surveillance is what motivates religious people to be good. Both are caricatures of a religious outlook. If that has been your experience, I would not dispute that you’ve encountered religious people with that viewpoint, but that in no way describes my own experience of religion. I do not seek to be loving and just and virtuous to please God, but that is what makes me happy and brings happiness to those around me, and I trust that this is fully in line with the divine ordinances. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Oct 16 2006, 04:58 PM Post #99 |
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Senior Carp
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I'd like to answer some of this IT but it's 1.40 in the morning here so (yawn) i'd love to carry on tomorrow if you'll excuse me. Although you are right in that it is in my interest to argue this case. Some of the weight of evidence supporting this is pointed to in my last few posts, in that the lack of belief in a God bears no reason in itself to kill people. Whereas belief in God requires a belief in (say) the bible and that truly does have plenty to offer in reasons to kill people. eg: "If a man discovers on his wedding night that his bride is not a virgin, he must stone her to death on her fathers doorstep. (Deuteronomy 22:13-21)" You don't have to believe this i feel to be a Christian but plenty would argue that you should and the religious duty is there for you to take up should you be feeling particularly obedient. (anyway got to pick up a bag of gravel on my way to the father in laws before bed) |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 16 2006, 05:34 PM Post #100 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I am not sure I've ever seen anyone argue that the lack of belief in God itself bears any reason to kill people, so you'll have to argue that with someone who holds that understanding. G'night. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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