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| Why the Islamic Terrorists Hate the USA?; "who we are" or "our foreign policy? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Oct 13 2006, 02:41 AM (2,049 Views) | |
| mmmaestro007 | Oct 14 2006, 01:34 AM Post #51 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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bingo! you hit the jackpot! we invade their domain and they respond! |
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"Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of giving pleasure to thousands, and all you can do is scratch it!" Sir Thomas Beechem, conductor | |
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| Mikhailoh | Oct 14 2006, 04:12 AM Post #52 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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I would submit that, once a group has declared it their aim to destroy us and our way of life, and has employed the evils that Islamofascism has, it is unimportant why they hate us. It is quite enough that they have declared their intention and acted upon it. There is nothing in Western foreign policy in this century that could possibly justify this kind of hatred and this kind of depraved warfare, infdifferent to the lives of their own civilians. The west built their only viable industry and poured wealth in to the area. The fact that there were compromises and conflicts and some people won and some lost is simply the nature of human transactions. Some will always have power and some will not. But the west did not enslave them nor, in my opinion, seriously abuse them. We need not spend time handwringing over what evil we wrought that precipitated this. All nations pursue their own interests and we are no different. This is a matter of extremism and evil. It crops up in the world from time to time throughout history. If it did not take this particular form with these people it would simply show up in some other form at another time. The more relevant question is how do we go about eliminating the threat they pose. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Moonbat | Oct 14 2006, 04:55 AM Post #53 |
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Pisa-Carp
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No no no! We must try and understand what's going on if we don't we handicap ourselves when it comes to your last point: eliminating the threat. In that context questions of 'justification' are irrelevent, what matters here are questions of truth, is it _true_ that our foreign policies have played (and perhaps are playing) some causative role in creating this threat we face? If they have/are then how significant a role is it, and what can/should we do about it. We need to understand those causes otherwise we will risk making things worse for ourselves as we blunder around in the dark. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Mikhailoh | Oct 14 2006, 05:09 AM Post #54 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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I agree to study the history is fine, to try to understand the genesis of the situation. But from an academic viewpoint, with an eye toward the future, probably more sociology than political science, and not as a guide to what to do now. This situation has been many years in the making, and no shift in policy we can make now will make the threat go away. We are, as humans, always blundering around in the dark simply because we cannot accurately predict the future. Decisions are made based on the best information available at the time, and that will not change. I have two problems with what I see from so many who are employing the 'oh, what did we do to these poor folks that caused this', the handwringing approach. I am not lumping you in that group, Moonbat. Firstly, regardless of what we did or did not do for/with/to them, there cannot be any justification for running airliners into buildings, bombing commuter trains and nightclubs and the like. That is the evil, not anything we did. Secondly, there seems to be some implication that there is, in the world of international relations, the ability to make ANY decision that will not have some negative impact, the perfect plan. Good for everyone. This is not real. There are always upsides and downsides to any decision. It is an imperfect world. Look back on the American decisions we know about over the last century. Which ones would you change? Not very many, in my book. We seem to have done rather well. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| Moonbat | Oct 14 2006, 05:50 AM Post #55 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Well we are inevitably blundering around to a certain extent but as you point out we must strive to have the best information and i would argue that trying to understand what's going on, and what the causes are is a very important part of that. No decision we make now will make the problem evaporate but we should always strive to have the policy which best reduces the threat when looking slightly longer term. That extends to the policy we have today, i mean todays policy affects tomorrows world, indeed all policy decision are taken in the "present", one is forever stuck there, if we always put off instigating policy changes untill "tomorrow" then we will never make any. I really don't find the "justified" question particularly interesting, in their heads no doubt the 9/11 crew thought they were justified, but i think they acted to make the world a worse place, that's all i care about. So the question i'm interested in is "How can we go about changing this situation such that the world is better off?". Clearly your second point about imperfect policy is right, but i think it's ok to say "yes in retrospect that didn't work" that has to be part of this process of gathering information. Admiting error should not necessarily mean admitting liability, because all you can do is go with best bet you have. I'd need to look at the policies of the US in great detail to answer your question properly but to pick the two most obvious ones i'm not convinced that Iraq has helped, it looks like we face more of a threat for doing that, likewise the Israeli policy doesn't seem to me something that has helped with respect to the threat that Islamic terrorism poses to the world. |
| Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem | |
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| Dewey | Oct 14 2006, 06:13 AM Post #56 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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As already said, every policy will have a negative impact as well as a positive one. And yes, we have to look at all the facets of an issue before forming a policy, and if it is truly oppressive or unjust, we shouldn't adopt the policy. But some policy that we must adopt will have that negative aspect, and if the policy is moral and in our national interest, we should be willing to defend it, regardless of the reaction of others. As far as how much US policy has "caused" Islamofascist terrorism aimed at us, all of the issues of US troops on Arab soil, etc., blah, blah, blah, are all just secondary. The Islamofascists already have a self-formed sense of outrage, inferiority, and hair-trigger resentment. Other than this pre-existing hatred and bitterness that they're not getting their props as being superior to the rest of the civilized world, the real primary US policy that focuses their hatred at the US is our support for Israel. As a nation, we have to make a choice. As I said before, the choice must be made on the basis of morality melded with national interest. The choice is whether we support Israel's right to exist, and whether we are willing to assist Israel in its goal of living peacefully while surrounded by enemies who want to destroy it. We can argue back and forth about how much foreign aid we should give it. We can argue over whether we support the location of the separation wall, or whether it should exist all. We can debate over whether we agree with this or that Israeli policy. But that's all secondary to the central point, and at the end of the day, no answer to any of those questions would stop Islamofascist terrorism against us. The primary question remains: Is it more moral and in our national interest to support and assist Israel in its right to exist; or is it more moral and in our national interest to withdraw that support? As long as we believe that it is more moral and in our interest to support Israel in its struggle, the Islamofrascists will be at war with us. But the opposite decision wouldn't result in peaceful relations, either. Having been emboldened by the success of getting the US to not support Israel, they'd simply refocus their efforts on a new battleground focus (as they've focused in Iraq). They would see it simply as one more victory on the way to the caliphate. |
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"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685. "Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous "Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011 I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14 | |
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| 1hp | Oct 14 2006, 08:33 AM Post #57 |
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Fulla-Carp
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Well, one way would be to quietly replace all the cleric extremists with America loving ones. With clerics preaching peace and love everything would grind to a halt in days. |
| There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those that understand binary and................ | |
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| Mikhailoh | Oct 14 2006, 08:40 AM Post #58 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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You have a mind-altering ray to do this? If so, I'm in!
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| mmmaestro007 | Oct 14 2006, 03:40 PM Post #59 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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there is possibly another issue here-how do you define freedom? is the West's ideal view of freedom diiferent from other parts of the world? |
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"Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of giving pleasure to thousands, and all you can do is scratch it!" Sir Thomas Beechem, conductor | |
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| ivorythumper | Oct 14 2006, 05:19 PM Post #60 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Among others, there are two broad definitions: the modern and the hedonist see freedom as the freedom to do what one wants, e.g., freedom to pursue one's passions; the classical view (Aristotelian, Christian, inter alia) is an internal regulation, the freedom of virtue, the freedom from passions. The discipline of self mastery in the spiritual life is ordered toward the latter. I'm not sure that any of that is particularly germane to the present conversation, since either way the person must be free to decide. The notion of external coercion is antithetical to freedom regardless of how you view it. What are you getting at? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Ben | Oct 14 2006, 06:49 PM Post #61 |
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Senior Carp
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I enjoyed the ice cream ![]() Seriously though, you have given me a lot to think about. I think I will print your post out and read it over again during English class on Monday. ![]() Hey, this makes my second really productive discussion here in the past three weeks! The other one is actually ongoing, or would be, if Rick would check his PM's while he's on holiday... :rolleyes:
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- Ben "Playing 'bop' is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing." - Duke Ellington bennieloohoo@gmail.com Or you can just PM me.
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| mmmaestro007 | Oct 14 2006, 06:53 PM Post #62 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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i could have added democracy to that question as well i think. W is claiming to be giving freedom to Iraqi's- do we know if they want western style freedom? (if there are styles of freedom) western style freedom conflicts with their customs and religion- how can this work? do we even know if a western style democracy is workable in a country torn between 3 ( ?) factions? Does it need a dictator like Saddam to hold these factions? it's OK to look at it from our point of view but you have to also look from the other side |
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"Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of giving pleasure to thousands, and all you can do is scratch it!" Sir Thomas Beechem, conductor | |
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| mmmaestro007 | Oct 14 2006, 07:31 PM Post #63 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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you're forgetting that most terrorists came from Saudi Arabia, not Iraq but that may have changed now! |
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"Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of giving pleasure to thousands, and all you can do is scratch it!" Sir Thomas Beechem, conductor | |
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| Mikhailoh | Oct 14 2006, 07:53 PM Post #64 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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"W is claiming to be giving freedom to Iraqi's- do we know if they want western style freedom?" Gee, I don't know. DID THEY SHOW UP TO VOTE??????? |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| mmmaestro007 | Oct 14 2006, 08:31 PM Post #65 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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"As far as how much US policy has "caused" Islamofascist terrorism aimed at us, all of the issues of US troops on Arab soil, etc., blah, blah, blah, are all just secondary" far from it, if we believe Arabs are brought up and brainwashed by the Mullahs or Imans or whatever, then we have to consider what would the motives of the Mullahs or Imans be? power? i don't think power in the Western sense at all but maybe power for another reason money? unlikely because(except to fight the cause) being deeply religous this would not appeal to them i believe they resent the fact that the West occupies their lands and controls the price of their major source of income but they need the West as well to buy their oil the Mullahs or Imans then brainwash their people into hating the West for this reasom IMO they also feel their religion is threatened by Western civilisation most of the terrorists [/I]came from Saudi Arabia due to fact 85% of jobs in Saudi Arabia are filled by foreigners- most of the locals study theology at university and so this where the fundamentalism is bred now you may think the solution is easy for the West- just pack up and leave and that will be the end of terrorism! well IMO that would be the end of terrorism(mid east) but we need cheap oil and lots of it! OK, lets develop alternative technology so we don't need oil! sounds good except for most western government raise A LOT of taxes through oil-(in Oz we pay the goverment 40 -50 cents per litre of petrol) if governments lose this revenue they will have trouble running the country(and in turn lose their jobs) there's also the oil industry which employ a lot of people but also contribute a lot of funds to political funds and they want something in return for that this is why some governments are a little reluctant to help develop alternative technologies IMO your quote "The primary question remains: Is it more moral and in our national interest to support and assist Israel in its right to exist; or is it more moral and in our national interest to withdraw that support? As long as we believe that it is more moral and in our interest to support Israel in its struggle, the Islamofrascists will be at war with us." i don't believe Israel is the issue here at all-in the Palestine situation definately but not in the overall Middle East picture- it's not a major cause of terrorism IMO |
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"Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of giving pleasure to thousands, and all you can do is scratch it!" Sir Thomas Beechem, conductor | |
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| Larry | Oct 14 2006, 08:57 PM Post #66 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Answer Mik's question, idiot. You asked if the Iraqis really wanted democracy. He asked you if they turned out to vote for it. Answer him. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| mmmaestro007 | Oct 14 2006, 09:29 PM Post #67 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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but do they know what western democracy is??????????????????????? |
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"Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of giving pleasure to thousands, and all you can do is scratch it!" Sir Thomas Beechem, conductor | |
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| kentcouncil | Oct 14 2006, 10:19 PM Post #68 |
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Fulla-Carp
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To ignore the truth in the name of tolerance, political-correctness, and self-examination is to ignore the 800-pound gorilla in the room, which can only lead to insufficient answers and solutions. This is a religious war, and religion is the enemy. "To see that our problem is with Islam itself, and not merely with “terrorism”, we need only ask ourselves why Muslim terrorists do what they do. Why would someone as conspicuously devoid of personal grievances or psychological dysfunction as Osama bin Laden – who is neither poor, uneducated, delusional, nor a prior victim of Western aggression – devote himself to cave –dwelling machinations with the intention of killing innumerable men, women, and children he has never met? The answer to this question is obvious – if only because it has been patiently articulated ad nauseam by bin Laden himself. The answer is that men like bin Laden actually believe what they say they believe. They believe in the literal truth of the Koran. ... Most people in positions of leadership in our country will say that there is no direct link between the Muslim faith and “terrorism”. It is clear, however, that Muslims hate the West in the very terms of their faith and that the Koran mandates such hatred. It is widely claimed by “moderate” Muslims that the Koran mandates nothing of the kind and that Islam is a “religion of peace”. But one need only read the Koran itself to see that this is untrue: Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate. (Koran 9:73) Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous. (Koran 9:123) ... The reality that the West currently enjoys far more wealth and temporal power than any nation under Islam is viewed by devout Muslims as a diabolical perversity, and this situation will always stand as an open invitation for jihad... Insofar as a person is Muslim... he will feel contempt for any man or woman who doubts the truth of his beliefs. What is more, he will feel that the eternal happiness of his children is put in peril by the mere presence of such unbelievers in the world. If such people happen to be making the policies under which he and his children must live, the potential for violence imposed by his beliefs seems unlikely to dissipate. This is why economic advantages and education, in and of themselves, are insufficient remedies for the causes of religious violence (emphasis mine). There is not doubt that many well-educated, middle-class fundamentalists are ready to kill and die for God. As Samuel Harrington and others have observed, religious fundamentalism in the developing world is not, principally, a movement of the poor and uneducated. To see the role that faith plays in propagating Muslim violence, we need only ask why so many Muslims are eager to turn themselves into bombs these days. The answer: because the Koran makes this activity seem like a career opportunity. Nothing in the history of Western civilization explains this behavior (though we can certainly concede that this history offers us much to atone for). Subtract the Muslim belief in martyrdom and jihad, and the actions of suicide bombers become completely unintelligible, as does the spectacle of public jubilation that invariably follows their deaths; insert these peculiar beliefs, and one can only marvel that suicide bombing is not more widespread (emphasis mine)." - Sam Harris, The End of Faith |
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It was a confusion of ideas between him and one of the lions he was hunting in Kenya that had caused A. B. Spottsworth to make the obituary column. He thought the lion was dead, and the lion thought it wasn't. - P.G. Wodehouse | |
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| mmmaestro007 | Oct 15 2006, 04:07 PM Post #69 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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"This is a religious war, and religion is the enemy." [/I]religion is not the enemy, if we start thinking like this we may as well declare WW3 now and get it over with! - there far more peaceful Muslims than not-we could never wipe out any religion anyway and nor should we want to "To see that our problem is with Islam itself, and not merely with “terrorism”, we need only ask ourselves why Muslim terrorists do what they do. " we need to know why Islamic clerics preach death and destruction-it's not with Islam itself "But one need only read the Koran itself to see that this is untrue: Prophet, make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate. (Koran 9:73) Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them. Know that God is with the righteous. (Koran 9:123)" is there not passages of violence in our Bible? "Nothing in the history of Western civilization explains this behavior (though we can certainly concede that this history offers us much to atone for" the West has been meddling in their affairs for many years and this is how they respond think back to early 20th century when the Brits carved up the Mid East and left Iraq virtually landlocked- how do think Iraq feels about this? |
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"Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of giving pleasure to thousands, and all you can do is scratch it!" Sir Thomas Beechem, conductor | |
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| Wacki Iraqi | Oct 15 2006, 05:29 PM Post #70 |
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Senior Carp
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BRILLIANT! No really.............i'm pretty sure no one would ever be able to quote a single mishap......really! From the Vietnam war to George Bush Jr speaking theres simply nothing there. ..............nope........cant......:excited: |
| You're an atheist when considering Zeus, Apollo, Amon Ra, Mithras, Baal, Thor, Wotan, the Golden Calf and the Flying Spaghetti Monster.........I just go one God further. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Oct 15 2006, 05:40 PM Post #71 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Just what we need here, more word-twisting morons. See ya Iraqi. By the way, why weren't you home anyway, eh? Must like the west better I guess. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| mmmaestro007 | Oct 16 2006, 03:44 AM Post #72 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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that's racist in no uncertain terms- you should apologise |
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"Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of giving pleasure to thousands, and all you can do is scratch it!" Sir Thomas Beechem, conductor | |
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| Mikhailoh | Oct 16 2006, 03:55 AM Post #73 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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Racist? To whom? The Iraqi 'race'? There he goes, speaking in his native tongue again. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| mmmaestro007 | Oct 16 2006, 03:57 AM Post #74 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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yes imbecile! |
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"Madam, you have between your legs an instrument capable of giving pleasure to thousands, and all you can do is scratch it!" Sir Thomas Beechem, conductor | |
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| Mikhailoh | Oct 16 2006, 04:01 AM Post #75 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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There IS no Iraqi race. Iraq is made up of: Arab 75%–80%, Kurdish 15%–20%, Turkoman, Assyrian, or other 5%. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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