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Saddam and al-Qaeda, Pre-War; A New Report Says ....
Topic Started: Sep 8 2006, 08:45 AM (608 Views)
JBryan
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I am the grey one
Jack Frost
Sep 8 2006, 10:56 PM
JBryan
Sep 8 2006, 11:45 PM
Is that your response?

I am not done. I expect i will be complaining about this one all my life...even as my daughter has to pay for this miscalculation.

In some ways, W's lie about paying for the war is the worst.

Lets have tax cuts and pretend the war is not costing anything...charge it...makes it easier to sell.

IMAGINE JB if he had gone on the tube and said "This is going to cost us at least $500 Billion, but I still think it is a good idea, and this is why....Of course we will have to raise taxes, but I think it is a good idea, and this is why....."

President Kerry would have had to deal with the mess.

Lies. Lies. Lies.

Worst President ever....

jf

The tax cuts have actually been a positive for revenues to the treasury. I can't imagine the difficulty we would be in if a Democrat had been responsible for even that one aspect.

If you are complaining about the cost then all I can say is what did you think was going to be the result when you saw the World Trade Center pancaking into the ground. Surely you did not think we would just toss some money at internal security matters and be done with it. That would have left an awful lot of resources (Saddam was a major available resource) at the disposal of those who would do such a thing.

"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Jack Frost
Sep 8 2006, 11:01 PM
JBryan
Sep 8 2006, 11:57 PM
1. Saddam being responsible for 9/11 was NEVER offered as a rationale by anyone (Republican or Democrat). Conspiracy theories about Jedi mind tricks don't count. Quote for me one Administration official (I am not even confining this to Bush) that made any explicit statement to that effect.

Hang on to your hat buddy...


George W. Bush

2002

"The regime has longstanding and continuing ties to terrorist groups, and there are Al Qaida terrorists inside Iraq." - George W. Bush Delivers Weekly Radio Address, White House (9/28/2002) - BushOnIraq.com

"We know that Iraq and al Qaeda have had high-level contacts that go back a decade. Some al Qaeda leaders who fled Afghanistan went to Iraq. These include one very senior al Qaeda leader who received medical treatment in Baghdad this year, and who has been associated with planning for chemical and biological attacks. We've learned that Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases." - President Bush Outlines Iraqi Threat; Remarks by the President on Iraq, White House (10/7/2002) - Whitehouse.gov

"I think they're both equally important, and they're both dangerous. And as I said in my speech in Cincinnati, we will fight if need be the war on terror on two fronts. We've got plenty of capacity to do so. And I also mentioned the fact that there is a connection between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein. The war on terror, Iraq is a part on the war on terror. And he must disarm." - President Condems Attack in Bali, White House (10/14/2002) - Whitehouse.gov

"This is a man who has got connections with Al Qaida. Imagine a terrorist network with Iraq as an arsenal and as a training ground, so that a Saddam Hussein could use this shadowy group of people to attack his enemy and leave no fingerprint behind. He's a threat." - Remarks by the President in Texas Welcome, White House (11/4/2002) - Whitehouse.gov

"He's a threat because he is dealing with Al Qaida. In my Cincinnati speech I reminded the American people, a true threat facing our country is that an Al Qaida-type network trained and armed by Saddam could attack America and leave not one fingerprint." - President Outlines Priorities, White House (11/7/2002) - BushOnIraq.gov

"He's had contacts with Al Qaida. Imagine the scenario where an Al Qaida-type organization uses Iraq as an arsenal, a place to get weapons, a place to be trained to use the weapons. Saddam Hussein could use surrogates to come and attack people he hates." - Remarks by the President at Arkansas Welcome, White House (11/4/2002) - BushOnIraq.com

2003

"Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications, and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of al Qaeda. Secretly, and without fingerprints, he could provide one of his hidden weapons to terrorists, or help develop their own." - President Delivers "State of the Union", White House (1/28/2003) - Whitehouse.gov

"Before September the 11th, many in the world believed that Saddam Hussein could be contained. But chemical agents, lethal viruses, and shadowy terrorist networks are not easily contained. Imagine those 19 hijackers with other weapons and other planes -- this time armed by Saddam Hussein. It would take one vial, one canister, one crate slipped into this country to bring a day of horror like none we have ever known." - President Delivers "State of the Union", White House (1/28/2003) - Whitehouse.gov

"Saddam Hussein has longstanding, direct and continuing ties to terrorist networks. Senior members of Iraqi intelligence and al Qaeda have met at least eight times since the early 1990s. Iraq has sent bomb-making and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training. We also know that Iraq is harboring a terrorist network, headed by a senior al Qaeda terrorist planner." - President Bush: "World Can Rise to This Moment", White House (2/6/2003) - Whitehouse.gov

Saddam Hussein has longstanding, direct and continuing ties to terrorist networks. Senior members of Iraq intelligence and al Qaeda have met at least eight times since the early 1990s. Iraq has sent bomb-making and document forgery experts to work with al Qaeda. Iraq has also provided al Qaeda with chemical and biological weapons training. And an al Qaeda operative was sent to Iraq several times in the late 1990s for help in aquiring poisons and gases. We also know that Iraq is harboring a terrorist network headed by a senior al Qaeda terrorist planner." - President's Radio Address, White House (2/8/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"He has trained and financed al Qaeda-type organizations before, al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations." - President George Bush Discusses Iraq in National Press Conference, White House (3/6/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"The regime . . . has aided, trained and harbored terrorists, including operatives of al Qaeda. The danger is clear: using chemical, biological or, one day, nuclear weapons, obtained with the help of Iraq, the terrorists could fulfill their stated ambitions and kill thousands or hundreds of thousands of innocent people in our country, or any other." President Says Saddam Hussein Must Leave Iraq Within 48 Hours, White House (3/17/2003) -BushOnIraq.com

"The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We've removed an ally of al Qaeda, and cut off a source of terrorist funding. And this much is certain: No terrorist network will gain weapons of mass destruction from the Iraqi regime, because the regime is no more." - President Bush Announces Major Combat Operations in Iraq Have Ended, White House (5/1/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11, 2001 -- and still goes on. That terrible morning, 19 evil men -- the shock troops of a hateful ideology -- gave America and the civilized world a glimpse of their ambitions. They imagined, in the words of one terrorist, that September the 11th would be the 'beginning of the end of America.' By seeking to turn our cities into killing fields, terrorists and their allies believed that they could destroy this nation's resolve, and force our retreat from the world. They have failed." - President Bush Announces Major Combat Operations in Iraq Have Ended, White House (5/1/2003) - BushOnIraq.com


Dick Cheney

2002

"In Afghanistan we found confirmation that bin Laden and the al-Qaeda network were seriously interested in nuclear and radiological weapons, and in biological and chemical agents. We are especially concerned about any possible linkup between terrorists and regimes that have or seek weapons of mass destruction." - Vice President Delivers Remarks to the National Academy of Home Builders, White House (6/6/2002) - BushOnIraq.com

"His regime has had high-level contacts with al Qaeda going back a decade and has provided training to al Qaeda terrorists." - Remarks by the Vice President at the Air National Guard Senior Leadership Conference, White House (12/2/2002) - BushOnIraq.com

"There is also a grave danger that al Qaeda or other terrorists will join with outlaw regimes that have these weapons to attack their common enemy, the United States of America. That is why confronting the threat posed by Iraq is not a distraction from the war on terror." - Remarks by the Vice President at the Air National Guard Senior Leadership Conference, White House (12/2/2002) - BushOnIraq.com

2003

"His regime aids and protects terrorists, including members of al Qaeda. He could decide secretly to provide weapons of mass destruction to terrorists for use against us." - Vice President's Remarks at 30th Political Action Conference, White House (1/30/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"And Saddam Hussein becomes a prime suspect in that regard because of his past track record and because we know he has, in fact, developed these kinds of capabilities, chemical and biological weapons. . . We know that he has a long-standing relationship with various terrorist groups, including the al-Qaeda organization." - Dick Cheney, Meet the Press, NBC (3/16/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"I have argued in the past, and would again, if we had been able to pre-empt the attacks of 9/11 would we have done it? And I think absolutely. We have to be prepared now to take the kind of bold action that's being contemplated with respect to Iraq in order to ensure that we don't get hit with a devastating attack when the terrorists' organization gets married up with a rogue state that's willing to provide it with the kinds of deadly capabilities that Saddam Hussein has developed and used over the years." - Dick Cheney, Meet the Press, NBC (3/16/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"If we're successful in Iraq, if we can stand up a good representative government in Iraq, that secures the region so that it never again becomes a threat to its neighbors or to the United States, so it's not pursuing weapons of mass destruction, so that it's not a safe haven for terrorists, now we will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11." - Dick Cheney, Meet the Press, NBC (9/14/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"(Since September 11) We learned more and more that there was a relationship between Iraq and al-Qaeda that stretched back through most of the decade of the '90s, that it involved training, for example, on BW and CW, that al-Qaeda sent personnel to Baghdad to get trained on the systems that are involved. The Iraqis providing bomb-making expertise and advice to the al-Qaeda organization." - Dick Cheney, Meet the Press, NBC (9/14/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"And the reason we had to do Iraq, if you hark back and think about that link between the terrorists and weapons of mass destruction, Iraq was the place where we were most fearful that that was most likely to occur, because in Iraq we've had a government -- not only was it one of the worst dictatorships in modern times, but had oftentimes hosted terrorists in the past . . . but also an established relationship with the al Qaeda organization . . . ." - Vice President Dick Cheney Remarks at Luncheon for Congressman Jim Gerlach, White House (10/3/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"(I)f we had not paid any attention to the fact that al Qaeda was being hosted in Northeastern Iraq, part of poisons network producing ricin and cyanide that was intended to be used in attacks both in Europe, as well as in North Africa and ignored it, we would have been derelict in our duties and responsibilities." - Vice President Dick Cheney Remarks at Luncheon for Congressman Jim Gerlach, White House (10/3/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"He cultivated ties to terror, hosting the Abu Nidal organization, supporting terrorists, making payments to the families of suicide bombers in Israel. He also had an established relationship with al Qaeda, providing training to al Qaeda members in the areas of poisons, gases, making conventional bombs." - Remarks by Vice President Dick Cheney at the Heritage Foundation, White House (10/10/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

"Saddam Hussein had a lengthy history of reckless and sudden aggression. He cultivated ties to terror -- hosting the Abu Nidal organization, supporting terrorists, and making payments to the families of suicide bombers. He also had an established relationship with Al Qaida -- providing training to Al Qaida members in areas of poisons, gases and conventional bombs. He built, possessed, and used weapons of mass destruction." - Richard B. Cheney Delivers Remarks at the James A. Baker, III, Institute for Public Policy, White House (10/18/2003) - BushOnIraq.com

2004

"We'll find ample evidence confirming the link, that is the connection if you will between al Qaida and the Iraqi intelligence services. They have worked together on a number of occasions." - Transcript of interview with Vice President Dick Cheney, Rocky Mountain News (1/9/2004) - BushOnIraq.com

"We did have reporting that was public, that came out shortly after the 9/11 attack, provided by the Czech government, suggesting there had been a meeting in Prague between Mohammed Atta, the lead hijacker, and a man named al-Ani (Ahmed Khalil Ibrahim Samir al-Ani), who was an Iraqi intelligence official in Prague, at the embassy there, in April of '01, prior to the 9/11 attacks. It has never been -- we've never been able to collect any more information on that. That was the one that possibly tied the two together to 9/11." - Transcript of Interview with Vice President Dick Cheney, Rocky Mountain News (1/9/2004) - BushOnIraq.com

"Saddam Hussein had a lengthy history of reckless and sudden aggression. His regime cultivated ties to terror, including the al Qaeda network, and had built, possessed, and used weapons of mass destruction." - Richard B. Cheney Delivers Remarks to the Los Angeles World Affairs Council, White House (1/14/2004) - BushOnIraq.com

"Saddam Hussein had a lengthy history of reckless and sudden aggression. His regime cultivated ties to terror, including the al Qaeda network, and had built, possessed, and used weapons of mass destruction." - Richard B. Cheney Delivers Remarks to Veterans at the Arizona Wing Museum, White House (1/15/2004) - BushOnIraq.com

"I continue to believe. I think there's overwhelming evidence that there was a connection between al-Qaeda and the Iraqi government. We've discovered since documents indicating that a guy named Abdul Rahman Yasin, who was a part of the team that attacked the World Trade Center in '93, when he arrived back in Iraq was put on the payroll and provided a house, safe harbor and sanctuary. That's public information now. So Saddam Hussein had an established track record of providing safe harbor and sanctuary for terrorists. . . . I mean, this is a guy who was an advocate and a supporter of terrorism whenever it suited his purpose, and I'm very confident that there was an established relationship there." - Dick Cheney, Morning Edition, NPR (1/22/2004) - BushOnIraq.com


From the White House website, Bush's comments about Saddam Hussein
(Campaign speeches only. For period of October 10 - November 04.)

OCT 28 Remarks by the President at New Mexico Welcome
"This is a person who has had contacts with al Qaeda."

OCT 28 Remarks by the President in Colorado Welcome
"He's got connections with al Qaeda."

OCT 31 Remarks by the President at South Dakota Welcome
"This is a guy who has had connections with these shadowy terrorist networks."

NOV 01 Remarks by the President at New Hampshire Welcome
"We know he's got ties with al Qaeda."

NOV 02 Remarks by the President in Florida Welcome
"We know that he's had connections with al Qaeda."

NOV 02 Remarks by the President in Atlanta, Georgia Welcome
"He's had connections with shadowy terrorist networks like al Qaeda."

NOV 02 Remarks by the President at Tennessee Welcome
"We know that he has had contacts with terrorist networks like al Qaeda."

NOV 03 Remarks by the President in Minnesota Welcome
"This is a man who has had contacts with al Qaeda."

NOV 04 Remarks by the President at Missouri Welcome
"This is a man who has had al Qaeda connections."

NOV 04 Remarks by the President at Arkansas Welcome
"He's had contacts with al Qaeda."

NOV 04 Remarks by the President in Texas Welcome
"This is a man who has got connections with al Qaeda."

Plus this speculation:

OCT 14 Remarks by the President in Michigan Welcome
"... we need to think about Saddam Hussein using al Qaeda to do his dirty work, to not leave fingerprints behind."

NOV 03 Remarks by the President in South Dakota Welcome
"And, not only that, he is -- would like nothing better than to hook-up with one of these shadowy terrorist networks like al Qaeda, provide some weapons and training to them, let them come and do his dirty work, and we wouldn't be able to see his fingerprints on his action. "

NOV 03 Remarks by the President at Illinois Welcome
"He is a man who would likely -- he is a man who would likely team up with al Qaeda. He could provide the arsenal for one of these shadowy terrorist networks. He would love to use somebody else to attack us, and not leave fingerprints behind. "



jf

jf, get a grip. We have always maintained that Saddam was playing footsie with Al Qaeda. What you have posted does not demonstrate anything having to do with Saddam being connected to 9/11.

You are starting to waste my time, old buddy. And that is going to piss me off.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
No way you are going to get pissed off on a Friday night. I know you better....

60% of the American people thought Saddam was behind 9/11. How did they get there?

Through the carefully worded remarks above. The intent was to justify the invasion....

jf

Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
The administration relentlessly tries to link Saddam to Al Qeada. The American public has just learned who Al Qeada is and knows it is responsible for 9/11. ERGO lots of people link Saddam to 9/11. This was obviously the reason the admin made the connection between Saddam and Al Qeada. Why else?

JB, you are as smart as they come. Certainly you have to admit this much. Lets see you really use your brains and defend it???

jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I said Jedi mind tricks don't count. If you cannot give an example of ANYONE in the Administration making a connection between Saddam and 9/11 then I don't care what 60% of the American people thought. It wouldn't surprise me that they gave that response just because Saddam was a name in the news so much. There are a whole bunch of people that think Elvis is still alive.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Jack Frost
Sep 8 2006, 11:13 PM
TThis was obviously the reason the admin relentlessly made the connection between Saddam and Al Qeada. Why else?


Uh, because it was true?
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Jack Frost
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JBryan
Sep 9 2006, 12:14 AM
I said Jedi mind tricks don't count. If you cannot give an example of ANYONE in the Administration making a connection between Saddam and 9/11 then I don't care what 60% of the American people thought. It wouldn't surprise me that they gave that response just because Saddam was a name in the news so much. There are a whole bunch of people that think Elvis is still alive.

Then why did W and CH spend so much time trying to link Saddam with Al Qeada? Are you saying they were not trying to make people think Saddam was responsible for 9/11? If you asnwer YES, they why were they beating that drum repeatedly leading up t the invasion of Iraq?

Apart from 9/11, any contact between Al Qeada and Iraq seems minor and random. Why bring it up repeatedly?

jf

Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Jack Frost
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JBryan
Sep 9 2006, 12:03 AM
[aspect.

If you are complaining about the cost then all I can say is what did you think was going to be the result when you saw the World Trade Center pancaking into the ground. Surely you did not think we would just toss some money at internal security matters and be done with it. That would have left an awful lot of resources (Saddam was a major available resource) at the disposal of those who would do such a thing.

I thought (among other things) this is going to cost us. I did not think...this is not going to cost us a penny but my daughter will pay dearly for this.

jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Jack Frost
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JBryan
Sep 9 2006, 12:14 AM
I said Jedi mind tricks don't count.

Whatever that means, if i were capable of it, you would be toast!

jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Quote:
 
Then why did W and CH spend so much time trying to link Saddam with Al Qeada? Are you saying they were not trying to make people think Saddam was responsible for 9/11? If you asnwer YES, they why were they beating that drum repeatedly leading up t the invasion of Iraq?

Apart from 9/11, any contact between Al Qeada and Iraq seems minor and random. Why bring it up repeatedly?


Because of 9/11 any connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda is compelling.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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OperaTenor
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What of the statistic that came out a couple of months ago showing ~90% of troops in Iraq believed Saddam was connected to 9/11? More Jedi mind tricks?



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Jack Frost
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JBryan
Sep 9 2006, 12:15 AM
Jack Frost
Sep 8 2006, 11:13 PM
TThis was obviously the reason the admin relentlessly made the connection between Saddam and Al Qeada.  Why else?


Uh, because it was true?

And that is what justified the invasion?

And you maintain W had no idea 60% of the American public would end up believing Saddam was behind 9/11?

And i suppose you think Rove would never consider such a calculus????

jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Jack Frost
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OperaTenor
Sep 9 2006, 12:28 AM
What of the statistic that came out a couple of months ago showing ~90% of troops in Iraq believed Saddam was connected to 9/11? More Jedi mind tricks?

Clearly I have more power than i imagined....got to research this....

jf


Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Again, post a citation from any Administration official that Saddam was connected to 9/11. You can cite polls of what people believe about the connection between Saddam and 9/11 all you like but that does not amount to a lie by the Bush administration. It may amount to a demonstration of the innate wisdom of the American people and awesomely so with respect to our troops but it is not responsive to my specific challenge.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Jack Frost
Sep 8 2006, 11:28 PM
JBryan
Sep 9 2006, 12:15 AM
Jack Frost
Sep 8 2006, 11:13 PM
TThis was obviously the reason the admin relentlessly made the connection between Saddam and Al Qeada.  Why else?


Uh, because it was true?

And that is what justified the invasion?

And you maintain W had no idea 60% of the American public would end up believing Saddam was behind 9/11?

And i suppose you think Rove would never consider such a calculus????

jf

Jack, please, a connection between Saddam and 9/11 was never cited by the Administration or the long line of Congressional Democrats who made a case for the invasion of Iraq.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Ben
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Would you two please both quit insisting the other answer your question? For some reason JB you keep insisting that JF talk about outright intentional lies and JF you keep insisting that JB talk about intimations. If you would both admit the other's right I think we can move on. :P
- Ben

"Playing 'bop' is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing." - Duke Ellington

bennieloohoo@gmail.com
Or you can just PM me. :P
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
Ben, would you stop sticking your nose into every debate telling people what to do?
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I think jf got the ball rolling by talking about lies. So far, I have not been asked to demonstrate anything.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Ben
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Fair enough, JB, but I don't see any reason to ignore what JF has been saying about intimations, not jedi mind tricks. And the same goes for JF who as you pointed out did start by claiming they lied and then revised his statement.
- Ben

"Playing 'bop' is like playing Scrabble with all the vowels missing." - Duke Ellington

bennieloohoo@gmail.com
Or you can just PM me. :P
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Show me Bush lies. I have offered that challenge ad infinitum on this forum and its illustrious predecessor and I have yet to find anyone to meet that challenge. As I said before, Jedi mind tricks don't count.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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Ben
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Senior Carp
You're not going to find an administration official lying flat-out about Iraq. You will find some rather unfortunate predictions about what the war would hold that some claim can't count as lies because they were predicting the future - I disagree, but fine. You will also find clear intimations intended to make the link in the American peoples' heads as amply evidenced by JF. Call it whatever you want but it was a definite strategy on the part of Rove & Co. and it worked.

It's way after midnight and I'm getting up in the morning. goodnight.
- Ben

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JBryan
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I am the grey one
Once again, Bush lies, put up or shut up.

Geez, it was never this hard with Clinton.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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George K
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Finally
Ed Morrissey Writes:

I've found one interesting nugget already. In the WMD accuracy report, a significant passage demonstrates the falsity of one leftist talking point (page 16, emphases mine):

On February 4, 2003, the U.S. government provided copies of the Niger uranium documents to the IAEA with talking points which stated, "two streams of reporting suggest Iraq has attempted to acquire uranium from Niger. We cannot confirm these reports and have questions regarding specific claims. Nonetheless, we are concerned that these reports may indicate Baghdad has attempted to secure an unreported source of uranium yellowcake for a nuclear weapons program." The two streams of reporting refer to the intelligence reports from the foreign intelligence service and a CIA intelligence report reflecting the findings of a former Ambassador's visit to Niger.

This confirms what we read in the previous SSCI report: Joe Wilson told the CIA that Iraq had attempted to buy uranium from Niger, and the CIA included that data in its assessment of Iraqi nuclear-weapons development. It corroborated rather than contradicted CIA intel on Saddam's WMD ambitions. That flies in the face of Wilson's assertions since May 2003, when he apparently decided he needed to cover his ass after American troops came up empty on nukes.

In fact, when one reads pages 11-16, it becomes apparent that almost the entire American intelligence community believed that Saddam continued to pursue nukes right up until we invaded in March 2003 -- especially the CIA. They argued that the aluminum tubes had to be intended for a nuclear program and that no other explanation could be possible. The INR (State) and Department of Energy quibbled; the former believed that the intel could not provide a "compelling" case for reconstitution, while the latter believed that the case was compelling without the tubes, which it questioned. The CIA not only did not question the nature of the tubes, it provided a counteranalysis when the IAEA argued against their interpretation:

["]We judge that Iraq would use any suitable tubes rather than try to procure perfect ones." The paper reiterated the CIA's assessment that the tubes' special material, dimensions, precise manufacturing tolerances, high cost, and the involvement of senior Iraqi leaders indicated the tubes were most likely for gas centrifuges to enrich uranium.

Over and over again, the CIA and the rest of the American intelligence community told the Bush administration what it had told the Clinton administration -- that Saddam was busily reconstituting his nuclear-weapons programs. Even the INR judged that the evidence could have demonstrated a limited reconstitution effort. Joe Wilson's report fed into that narrative by showing that Iraq had actively sought sources for yellowcake uranium after the IAEA and UNSCOM had locked up their own supplies.

Rather than showing that Bush lied about the intel he was given, this shows that the White House relied on a broad consensus among military and civilian intelligence services to determine that Saddam Hussein was pursuing nukes. The only liar uncovered in the beginning of the Phase II report is Joe Wilson.
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
Shall we call them "miscues" rather than lies?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6192327/site/newsweek/


jf
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Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
Q: Does the Iraq experience make it more likely or less likely that you would take the United States in to another preemptive military action?

BUSH: I would hope I never have to. I understand how hard it is to commit troops. Never wanted to commit troops. When I was running -- when we had the debate in 2000, never dreamt I'd be doing that. But the enemy attacked us, Jim, and I have a solemn duty to protect the American people, to do everything I can to protect us.

[George Bush, First Presidential Debate, 9/30/04]


jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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