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Coffee Room is only place...; that the Iraq war is still popular
Topic Started: Sep 8 2006, 06:43 AM (713 Views)
QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
Quote:
 
If you start your posts with insults, that is what you can expect to get back. Period.


In another context, I believe I've said something very similar. And was chastised for it.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
ivorythumper
Sep 8 2006, 12:29 PM
I don't listen to talk radio, read newspapers or rightwing journals, or blogs or particular pundits. I sort of doubt that most of the conservatives here do either. Why? Because they tend to argue from principles, not spin.

Yeah, right. Liberals argue what they're told to think, and conservatives argue because it's what they believe. It's just a happy coincidence that they all agree with each other. :rolleyes:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Jack Frost
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Bull-Carp
George K
Sep 8 2006, 10:46 AM
Hi Kathy. :wave:

You think?

jf
Quote:
 
Let it be said by our children's children that when we were tested we refused to let this journey end, that we did not turn back nor did we falter; and with eyes fixed on the horizon and God's grace upon us, we carried forth that great gift of freedom and delivered it safely to future generations.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John D'Oh
Sep 8 2006, 10:03 AM
ivorythumper
Sep 8 2006, 12:29 PM
I don't listen to talk radio, read newspapers or rightwing journals, or blogs or particular pundits. I sort of doubt that most of the conservatives here do either.  Why? Because they tend to argue from principles, not spin.

Yeah, right. Liberals argue what they're told to think, and conservatives argue because it's what they believe. It's just a happy coincidence that they all agree with each other. :rolleyes:

Gee, John, I didn't see you suggesting that Jingo's comment was out of whack
Quote:
 
Though it's pretty much a copycat attitude presentation from various Right wing pundits and bloggers around the country.


So maybe you can tell me what's the middle term between the environmentalists, the feminists, the socialists, the abortion lobby, the animal rights activists, the no nukes, the homosexuals, the Rainbow Coalition, etc -- apart from power politics.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
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My post was directed at the outspoken posters who seem to cling to the idea of this war as being absolutely the proper course of action. Like horses with blinders on...slogging forward, forward, forward. And never really understanding where they are going.


Well, I don't know if I'm an "outspoken" poster here, but I do "cling" to the idea that the Iraq war was the proper course of action given the information available at the time, the Iraqi refusal to comply with the terms of the cease-fire in the Gulf War, and their willingness to ally themselves with non-sovereign entities who have declared war on the US, and who are willing to fight proxy wars on behalf of supporting nation-states. And I can assure you that I'm not like a horse with blinders on, nor do I have any misperceptions of where the entire war on terror is likely headed. Neither am I under any misperceptions about the origins of the conflict, our ability to avoid it, or the correctness of fighting it.
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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George K
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Finally
Jack Frost
Sep 8 2006, 12:05 PM
George K
Sep 8 2006, 10:46 AM
Hi Kathy.  :wave:

You think?

jf

Nah, just pullin' Jolly's chain...
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... "
- Mik, 6/14/08


Nothing is as effective as homeopathy.

I'd rather listen to an hour of Abba than an hour of The Beatles.
- Klaus, 4/29/18
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Hobie
Junior Carp
Dewey

Having read your last post, it sounds like you are coming to a rational, well-thought out conclusion that stayng the course in Iraq is the best policy....right?

I can respect that. I do not agree that we are going to accomplish the objectives, however.

How many lives and how much money will the final bill for this war be? That's my biggest fear is that the 'stay the course" route will drag on for years and cost the US untold billions and thousands of lives.

I have no crystal ball. I do not know the proper course of action. I see how complex this issue is and it just gets depressing to read/hear news about Americans dying. I do not think that the situation is improving in Iraq and I feel opposed to this continued slaughter...with no end in sight.

For what it is worth...as an American...my vote will be for whoever is going to get us out of there.


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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
ivorythumper
Sep 8 2006, 01:09 PM
John D'Oh
Sep 8 2006, 10:03 AM
ivorythumper
Sep 8 2006, 12:29 PM
I don't listen to talk radio, read newspapers or rightwing journals, or blogs or particular pundits. I sort of doubt that most of the conservatives here do either.  Why? Because they tend to argue from principles, not spin.

Yeah, right. Liberals argue what they're told to think, and conservatives argue because it's what they believe. It's just a happy coincidence that they all agree with each other. :rolleyes:

Gee, John, I didn't see you suggesting that Jingo's comment was out of whack
Quote:
 
Though it's pretty much a copycat attitude presentation from various Right wing pundits and bloggers around the country.


So maybe you can tell me what's the middle term between the environmentalists, the feminists, the socialists, the abortion lobby, the animal rights activists, the no nukes, the homosexuals, the Rainbow Coalition, etc -- apart from power politics.

Both right and left wings are full of camp followers, that's the problem. I'm not including (or excluding) any present company in this, it's just a general observation. Maybe I'm a centrist :lol:
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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QuirtEvans
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
John D'Oh
Sep 8 2006, 12:40 PM
Maybe I'm a centrist :lol:

Maybe pigs can fly.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Hobie
Sep 8 2006, 09:38 AM
Dewey

Having read your last post, it sounds like you are coming to a rational, well-thought out conclusion that stayng the course in Iraq is the best policy....right?

I can respect that. I do not agree that we are going to accomplish the objectives, however.

How many lives and how much money will the final bill for this war be? That's my biggest fear is that the 'stay the course" route will drag on for years and cost the US untold billions and thousands of lives.

I have no crystal ball. I do not know the proper course of action. I see how complex this issue is and it just gets depressing to read/hear news about Americans dying. I do not think that the situation is improving in Iraq and I feel opposed to this continued slaughter...with no end in sight.

For what it is worth...as an American...my vote will be for whoever is going to get us out of there.

Quote:
 
Having read your last post, it sounds like you are coming to a rational, well-thought out conclusion that stayng the course in Iraq is the best policy....right?


No. I do not believe in staying the course in Iraq; I believe in decisively succeeding in Iraq.

I do not believe that we are losing; I do not believe that we need to "escape;" I do not believe that we are best served by leaving before we have established a decisive victory, defined by the re-establishment of a stable sovereign state.

I believe that at present, we are winning, but we aren't doing so decisively. Part of achieving a clear-cut success will take time, but that does not equate into simply continuing along the same path; "staying the course," status quo.

Quote:
 
How many lives and how much money will the final bill for this war be?  That's my biggest fear is that the 'stay the course" route will drag on for years and cost the US untold billions and thousands of lives.


Then be prepared to have your biggest fear replaced by even bigger ones. The war in Iraq is just one part of the ongoing, unavoidable clash of Muslim and Western cultures, and which direction the world is going to head int he future. And the death toll in Iraq is a very small drop in what is going to be a very deep bucket before it's all over. It will indeed drag on for many years, and it will be even more years, and result in even more death, destruction, and suffering, if people use those aforementioned blinders to pretend that we're not engaged in a major, ongoing, world-defining struggle; not one of our making but one that we must fight.

Quote:
 
For what it is worth...as an American...my vote will be for whoever is going to get us out of there.


There may indeed be a candidate whose policy will be to leave Iraq. Unfortunately, though, no candidate will have the ability to truly get us out of "there," since "there" isn't Iraq, it's the entire attack on Western culture by Muslim fanatacism/fascism. Not only that, but leaving Iraq prematurely will likely only keep us really "there" - i.e., involved in the larger struggle - longer, and more painfully so.

"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Hobie
Junior Carp
Dewey

Thank you for the most well-written summary of this mess I have read yet.

You are a good writer. Is that your occupation?

I am still pondering this issue
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Other than here, most of what I write these days is just an intermediate step, ultimately ending up being spoken.


Actually, that's not true... I'm literally writing a book as we speak. Doubt it will ever make the NYT Best-seller List, though. (just wrapping up a Project Manual, IT... :rolleyes2: )
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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apple
one of the angels
very good Dewey, indeed.

and might i add it is a long entrenched struggle..

also might i add that the success of capitalism on the world stage depends on our collective regulation of one the world's most valuable commodities.
it behooves me to behold
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Dewey
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HOLY CARP!!!
Gin?
"By nature, i prefer brevity." - John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, p. 685.

"Never waste your time trying to explain yourself to people who are committed to misunderstanding you." - Anonymous

"Oh sure, every once in a while a turd floated by, but other than that it was just fine." - Joe A., 2011

I'll answer your other comments later, but my primary priority for the rest of the evening is to get drunk." - Klaus, 12/31/14
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Daniel\
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Fulla-Carp
Hobie
Sep 8 2006, 06:43 AM
I feel that there are forum users who bully others to "comply or be cast out" with the attitudes here.

It might be your approach. ;)

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apple
one of the angels
i dunno.. Hobie seems a peaceful sort Daniel - happy birthday btw
it behooves me to behold
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John Jacob Jingoism Smith
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Middle Aged Carp
IT,

Hobie,Sep 8 2006
07:43 AM

I feel that there are forum users who bully others to "comply or be cast out" with the attitudes here.

[/QUOTE JJJS]
This may be true to an extent. Though it's pretty much a copycat attitude presentation from various Right wing pundits and bloggers around the country.

[/QUOTE Ivorythumper]JJJS: I don't listen to talk radio, read newspapers or rightwing journals, or blogs or particular pundits. "

OK, first of all, I was replying about people with the attitude he mentioned. I didn't say "all Conservatives" or anything like that. However, if you think the shoe fits, maybe it does.

While not everyone who has this attitude of Conservative bullying, insulting, absolutism, etc necessarily got it directly from their favorite commentators, I still think that is where it comes from and in many cases it is being passed from one to another within that ultraconservative culture. It's basically the same phenomenon as ultra Liberals of decades past picking up attitudes from their cultural icons (famous rock musicians or whatever) and then passing it around until in the end they basically are acting alike.

Bloggers and pundits are just the new rock stars for white guys in their middle ages who finally realized copying the attitudes and political stances of rock stars is silly.

And I see pretty much the same guys who years ago chided me for being too conservative because I refused to join in many of their silly games now chiding me for being too Liberal. Sheesh. What I see is they've simply flipped polarity and gone from one extreme to the other.

[/QUOTE Ivorythumper]
It is always interesting that folks tend to think themselves at the center -- I suppose its a vestige of the egocentricity of the infantile consciousness. This is often skewed by perceptions if one lives on either coast, and disparages the folks in between as "Jesusland". My money is on the inbetween for a more accurate barometer of the American consciousness than Manhattan or Malibu."

I have explained before but I guess I have to explain again, I used the term Centrist because I go Rightish on some things, and Leftish on others, depending. The Center is the average. "Egocentricity of the infantile consciousness???" Give me a HUGE break.

I happen to take a pretty hard line on Separation of Church and State and I also don't like the tide of people trying to impose religion on matters of law, and how they have massed into a voting block. And I think their constant haranguing of all things "California" is hateful and divisive. That's where the "Jesusland" comment was coming from. If you want to call that position Lefty, that's OK with me. That's a single issue. That poll we did the other day pegged me as "Libertarian" and I don't think that's entirely invalid either.

But I do straddle the Left and the Right and sometimes I'm in the middle. Centrist is the best term I could come up with, but hey I'm open to Libertartian or perhaps something else. But I'm willing to bet a lot of people who are solidly Centrist also take a hard line on the Separation of Church and State, and don't like a lot of the religious-based politicking either.
Jingoism

You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
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JBryan
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I am the grey one
I see the left doing the same thing today asyou describe them doing in the past only the rock stars have been subsumed by bloggers and other pundits.
"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne


There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it".


Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody.

Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore.

From The Lion in Winter.
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John Jacob Jingoism Smith
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Yes there are plenty of Left bloggers, commentators, etc. I'm not saying there aren't.
Jingoism

You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
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Ben
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Coffee Room is the only place where the Iraq war is still popular


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:D
- Ben

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Or you can just PM me. :P
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