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| Justifying the War | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 7 2006, 12:10 PM (702 Views) | |
| Hobie | Sep 7 2006, 12:10 PM Post #1 |
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Junior Carp
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This pretty much sums it up... http://www.sobran.com/columns/2005/050301.shtml |
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| Mark | Sep 7 2006, 12:14 PM Post #2 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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So you would just let the islamofascists take over and rule us all?
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___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
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| ny1911 | Sep 7 2006, 12:18 PM Post #3 |
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Senior Carp
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Hobie, neglecting the provocation from the Japanese at Pearl Harbor, should the US have gotten involved in WWII? |
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So live your life and live it well. There's not much left of me to tell. I just got back up each time I fell. | |
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| Hobie | Sep 7 2006, 12:20 PM Post #4 |
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Junior Carp
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Did you bother to read that article? Is that how you see this war...Either support it or let the fascists take over the world? I think you're being irrational and basing your decisions on imaginary do-or-die assumptions. The rationale for Veitnam was either fight or let the Communists take over. That was really good thinking now, wasn't it? |
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| Jolly | Sep 7 2006, 12:23 PM Post #5 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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You're wrong. The rationale for the Vietnam War was to stop the spread of communism in SE Asia, i.e. the Domino Theory. And for all the problems we had in Vietnam, guess what? Vietnam was the highwater mark for communism in Asia. |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Hobie | Sep 7 2006, 12:24 PM Post #6 |
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Junior Carp
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Look, my dad and my uncles all fought in WWII. That war sucked too. My Uncle is shell-shocked to this day. I dropped the fireplace poker one Christmas and it ruined the whole day for him. But we're not talking about WWII. I think that article makes some good points, one of which you proving right now. If we keep glorifying wars (especially WWII) we can expect more and more to come. That is a good point. I think that whole article is well written. If as a member of this forum I have to read pro-war and pro-Bush right wing carp, get ready to start reading some more....er...balancing viewpoints from me. |
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| Jolly | Sep 7 2006, 12:25 PM Post #7 |
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Geaux Tigers!
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It's an open forum, sir. Fire away! |
| The main obstacle to a stable and just world order is the United States.- George Soros | |
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| Hobie | Sep 7 2006, 12:26 PM Post #8 |
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Junior Carp
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Jolly.. I must have been posting at the same time as you.... So are you saying (like our president) "Mission Accomplished" in regard to Vietnam? |
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| Mark | Sep 7 2006, 12:26 PM Post #9 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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OK. |
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___.___ (_]===* o 0 When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells | |
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| ny1911 | Sep 7 2006, 12:39 PM Post #10 |
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Senior Carp
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The premise of that article is that war is bad. It uses the current war as justification for its assertions. Then you made reference to Vietnam. So what are we talking about here...war in general? WWII? Vietnam? This war? |
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So live your life and live it well. There's not much left of me to tell. I just got back up each time I fell. | |
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| Hobie | Sep 7 2006, 12:59 PM Post #11 |
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Junior Carp
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I make no claim to being the most eloquent poster. In reference to war being bad...yes that is my point, but more than that, I want to challenge the acceptance of it as a means to an end. Glorifying war is bad, too. I do not see that the war in Iraq is accompishing anything except death, destruction, and human suffering. What do you see it accomplishing? We are not saving ourselves from fascists, terrorists, or Islam. We are not safer, we are spending our budget to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars. I do not have the answer, I am just not a supporter of this war, and the number of folks with my viewpoint grows every day. |
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| John D'Oh | Sep 7 2006, 01:23 PM Post #12 |
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MAMIL
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The reason there was a war in Europe in the 1940's is that people in the Britain, France and the United States were too cowardly to stand up to extremism, bigotry and militarism in the 1930's. If they'd been willing to risk a few thousand lives, millions could have been saved. Many in the 1930's accused Churchill for one of being a warmonger with no regard for human life, and colonialist ambitions. Interesting, no? |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| JBryan | Sep 7 2006, 01:25 PM Post #13 |
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I am the grey one
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And those were the people who liked him. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| Larry | Sep 7 2006, 01:25 PM Post #14 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Could we say than, that what you're telling us is you're here to kick some Conservative butt?...... Oh tell me where we've heard *that* little line before...... So I'll save it for posterity. Hobie, it's like this. You're new here. If you don't like what you read here, go somewhere else. Don't stay here because you feel it's your mission in life to "add balance". Because if you decide to wage your own little personal campaign against the war, I'm gonna kick *your* ignorant little ass. And I'll do it with facts. Now - as to the war in Iraq. I have a few questions for you and the misguided gentleman in your article who wrote his little opinion piece theorizing about war, instead of dealing with the realities of the world: Do you support child prisons? Did it not bother you to see children as young as 4 years old being held in prison cells for political crimes? By the hundreds upon hundreds? Or are you not aware of this little fact? If you knew of a country RIGHT NOW that was putting children 4 years old and up in prisons, starving them, using them as sex toys at will, not allowing them to see their parents, would you recommend we leave them there? Would you recommend we do something to free them? Would you sit at your piano and play another Bob Dylan song and cry for THEM, Mr. Antiwar? Do you support mass graves? Do you support turning your back and pretending you don't see it while hundreds of people at a time, men, women, and children alike - are lined up beside a trench freshly dug by a bulldozer, sitting waiting to refill the hole, are shot through the head one by one, dropping dead into the trench, each person in the line knowing exactly what is coming, what is about to happen to them, women and children alike, tens of thousands of men, women, and children killed in this manner and buried in pits? Do you support that, Mr. Antiwar? If you knew RIGHT NOW of a place where men, women, and children were being lined up and shot one by one, down the line, and dropped into a mass grave, would you turn your back and let it happen? If you would, you're worse than a coward, Mr. Antiwar. Do you support having innocent women whose only crime is to be walking down the street being kidnapped by a select group of "leaders" who then take her away and gang rape her, then cut her into pieces and send her home to her husband? By the hundreds, almost daily? Is that ok with you? Should anyone try to stop it? If you knew of a place where women RIGHT NOW were being systematically gang raped and then butchered, would you turn your back and pretend it wasn't happening? Would you stand up and protest against those who went to the womens' rescue? Do you support shoving people feet first into meat grinders, Mr. Antiwar? Would you sit there and pretend it wasn't happening, and protest those who went in and put a stop to it? How about this, Mr. Antiwar - what if someone were to capture you, lock you in a cell and starve you until you were so hungry that you'd eat your shoes, and then took you into a room where they sat you at a table with a big bowl of hot stew and told you to eat - all while playing you a video tape of your wife and children being slaughtered and cooked into the stew you were eating. Would you want someone to come to your aid, Mr. Antiwar? Would you think it was justified for someone to get involved and stop that from happening to anyone else? THOSE are plenty of reasons to justify this war, Mr. Antiwar. Now - you and the rest of the Bob Dylan playing crying in your sleeve pacifist pussies may not understand this, and prefer instead to talk about the "high and noble act" of pacifism - but someone has to have the good sense to ignore your stupid ass and do what's needed to protect the world from evil scum. So don't come here thinking you're going to add "balance". Your viewpoint is so out of balance that the only thing it can do is sink the ship. You antiwar idiots make me mad. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| John D'Oh | Sep 7 2006, 01:27 PM Post #15 |
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MAMIL
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You know what makes me mad? The belief that I'm Joan of Arc. |
| What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket? | |
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| Hobie | Sep 7 2006, 01:43 PM Post #16 |
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Junior Carp
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Damn, Larry I've got it! You are Ed Anger! You know...the columnist for Weekly World News. I think you have a knack for humor the same way a drill sergeant does. "What are you, boy...stu-stu-stupid?" The evil deeds you mention may well have occured. There is no argument from me about Saddam Husein being a evil man. As for my agenda, I have none. I came over here for some fun (from PW) and ran smack dab into zealots of war and the rah-rah-rah for the home team garbage. As for your argument...what a load of bullsh*t. You must watch a lot of TV...probably Fox news and listening to Rush Limbuagh in your spare time. I have about as much chance of making my point to you as you do to me. So get used to my being here to jump all over the right wing drivel you've been troweling out. That's my form of balance. |
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| Larry | Sep 7 2006, 01:57 PM Post #17 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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In other words, you don't have an answer to my questions. Typical of you antiwar types. Lots of pollyannish self righteousness, but no substance. Let me make it easy for you - I'll limit it to one example. All of the examples I gave are true and factual, by the way - but let's just pick one. I'll use a hypothetical, since that's the only way you antiwar types can carry on a conversation: Down the street from you is a house filled with children between the ages of 4 and 7. They are chained to the walls, poorly fed, and there are two men living with them who rape them at will, and they have killed a few of them and chopped them up into little pieces and buried them in the basement. Do you: 1. Ignore it. 2. Call in the police. 3. Stand outside with a sign protesting police brutality. According to your logic, you would choose #3. You can't call in the police, can you - since that would mean you condone violence. So which would you do, Mr. Antiwar - ignore it, or protest it? |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| dolmansaxlil | Sep 7 2006, 02:03 PM Post #18 |
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HOLY CARP!!!
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Larry, If we were to equate your example to the way modern warfare is carried out, you'd need a fourth option: 4. Burn down the house and a few houses on either side, and make the kids live in the rubble until they are adults. Some wars are worth fighting, certainly. I just don't think that this is one of them. I don't think that in the long term it's changing the leadership of Iraq in anything but name. |
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"Your first 10,000 photographs are your worst." ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson My Flickr Photostream | |
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| Larry | Sep 7 2006, 02:17 PM Post #19 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Tell that to the Kurds, Dol. They are living peacefully for the first time in their lives. They even have a tourism industry now. They spend millions running ads on US national TV for the express purpose of saying "thank you America!". Did you know that most of Iraq is now living in peace? Every bit of trouble in Iraq right now is centered around Baghdad. In a country roughly the size of Texas, a city roughly the size of Houston is where all the trouble is. Just yesterday, military control was turned over to the Iraqis. This is a big step - but not one that's getting much airplay because it proves that the medias' spin on the war is dead wrong. It proves that Iraq *is* taking charge, and their leadership *is* coming together. Iraqis *are* going to have a better life. And during the last 5 years, not one child has been raped in a child prison, no one has been stuffed into a meatgrinder, no mass graves have been added, women aren't being raped by gangs of political fortunates, and no one has been forced to eat stew made out of his wife and children. I think with some antiwar types they think it's an all or nothing thing - either you hate war, or you love war. I hate war just as much as anyone. Nothing would make me more happy than to read in the papers that every human on the face of the earth had seen the error of their ways, and all hostilities everywhere had ended. Hell, I'd attend the marshmallow roast and sing Kumbaya with them. But that isn't reality. We can sit around and tout our lofty ideals all we want, and the fact remains that there are people in this world who want to kill other people, and someone must defend the rest of us from them. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Hobie | Sep 7 2006, 02:42 PM Post #20 |
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Junior Carp
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Let's see... The world according to Larry: Either you support the war or.... You're a liberal hippie anti-war idiot. Not a lot of grey area here, Larry. I guess you've never uttered the words "I'm wrong" or "I'm sorry" It must be really cool knowing everything like you do. Do you have a special "crystal ball" that allows you to have all of the facts? That explains how you know it all. Oops! I forgot. You got all of your facts from FOX news and Rush Limbaugh! BTW I like it when you call me an anti-war type. I may even change my name to Mr. Antiwar for this forum. |
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| Larry | Sep 7 2006, 02:46 PM Post #21 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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Once again you ignore the question. You do so because you don't have an answer. None of you antiwar fruitcakes have an answer. You just drop into your "you must listen to Fox News and Rush Limbaugh" attacks. Simple minded fool. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Hobie | Sep 7 2006, 02:46 PM Post #22 |
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Junior Carp
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Larry like I said, your style of writing is absolutley superb. You missed your calling. Here's one for you. Your kid breaks a rule and gets grounded. He disobeys you and sneaks out at night for some drinking and hell-raising with his fiends. After he gets thrown in the drunk tank you get a call from the police. They are holding him while he sobers up, and they want you to come get him. Do you: 1. Take down the name of the arresting officer and later go to his house and torture him. (He is after all holding your child from you) 2. Wage a war against teen drinking. 3. Take a parenting class. 4. Beat the piss out of your kid for disobeying you. |
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| OperaTenor | Sep 7 2006, 02:46 PM Post #23 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Hey Hobie, if you really want to score some points, call it "Faux News". |
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| Larry | Sep 7 2006, 03:01 PM Post #24 |
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
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What an absolutely idiotic, lame brained comparison! Are you really that poorly equipped mentally, or are you just teasing us?!? Do you really consider putting 5 year old children in prison and then having the prison guards rape them to be the equivalent of a kid getting tossed in jail for drinking? You are an idiot. For your information, I have had to get one of my sons out of jail several times. Every time, I paid his bail, and took him home. I thanked the officers for getting him off the streets so he couldn't hurt himself or someone else, and I took him home. I told him how much I loved him, and that because I loved him more than life itself, I would not continue to protect him from the penalties of his actions. The last time he got arrested for being drunk and he called me to come get him, I told him no. I told him he knew better, reminded him that the last time it happened I had made it clear that if it happened again he would simply have to live with the consequences. And I let him go through the legal system all by himself. I am quite sure that during his incarceration he was not raped by the prison guards, stuffed into a meat grinder, nor did anyone go pick up his girlfriend and gang rape her as part of his punishment. Now - answer my questions, halfwit, or shut the hell up. |
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Of the Pokatwat Tribe | |
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| Hobie | Sep 7 2006, 03:19 PM Post #25 |
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Junior Carp
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Larry I must admit you make me laugh with your writing style. To answer your question.... If there was a scenario like you describe, I would either call the cops or take matters into my own hands Charles Bronson-style. I never said I was non-violent. I strive for this as an ideal. But the reason I avioded that question was because it was a "set-up". The war we are in is not nearly as black and white as that question. It is the grey area that I am debating. There is not adequate justification for us to continue in Iraq. That's what I'm trying to say. You are hilarious, Larry. I want you to rip on me again. You ARE Ed Anger, aren't you? The writing style is identical. Check the link: http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/features/columnists/61473 |
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12:56 AM Jul 11