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| Torture is Bad; The Pentagon Finally Acknowledges | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 6 2006, 09:13 AM (1,279 Views) | |
| Rick Zimmer | Sep 7 2006, 10:01 AM Post #76 |
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Fulla-Carp
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I suspect most people could lose their moral compass and act irrationally when dealing with their own families. This is why we do not allow people who are so intimately affected by an action to be in the position to mete out justice for it. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| Phlebas | Sep 7 2006, 10:13 AM Post #77 |
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Bull-Carp
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Here's how I come out on this issue. There's right and wrong for individuals. Torture and killing fall under the wrong. If my family is threatened, it is not irrational or losing my moral compass to resort to a wrong. At the same time there are rights and wrongs for governments. War is wrong, and torture is wrong. However, if the country is threatened, it is not necessarily irrational or morally base to resort to a "wrong." It should be avoided as much as possible, but can't always be avoided - a la Chamberlain in the 1930's. I would even go so far as to say it is the responsibility of the government to use whatever means is necessary - at the point it is necessary - to protect its citizens. War is awful, and horrible things happen. Once it is undertaken bets are off, and civilians get killed, people get tortured. However much I would be against it the reality is it happens. The stupid thing Bush did was allowing the issue to be a part of public debate. |
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Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D | |
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| ivorythumper | Sep 7 2006, 10:15 AM Post #78 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I do think you made your statement in good faith and earnestness, and I respect it. I also think you are putting your priorities out of order. I am sure that you would be willing to die for your child-- but would you be willing to kill for them? |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Sep 7 2006, 10:17 AM Post #79 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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To be fair, I don't think he was entirely responsible for that. Or even in control of it. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| ivorythumper | Sep 7 2006, 10:22 AM Post #80 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Do you mean you do not tolerate abortion in America and that you don't support abortion rights? If so, forgive me. I thought you supported abortion rights. Must be my faulty memory.
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| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Sep 7 2006, 10:26 AM Post #81 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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OT: It has been going on since the founding of the country, so I cannot understand why you say you'd never thought you'd live to see the day when it has been going on your entire life. You don't strike me as the sort who is naive. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Sep 7 2006, 10:28 AM Post #82 |
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Fulla-Carp
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thumps, we have had this discussion before. I know you lump those who are prochoice in as being pro abortion. But they are two different things. I oppose abortion. I want the government out of mandating moral decisions on it. I support the individual's right to make her own moral decisions. Quite a classical conservative view, it seems to me. Now, you can translate that in to being pro abortion if you wish. Interesting though how you have decided to make this thread about abortion. Why do you fear speaking about the issue of this thread -- the morality of torture? |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| ivorythumper | Sep 7 2006, 10:35 AM Post #83 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Rick: You are condoning abortion. You just refuse to admit it, and hide behind non interference and a woman's purported right to choose. You have been converted to evil by your own account. You also have not been paying attention. I have no fear of speaking of the morality of torture, and laid out principles for consideration. You also have not been paying attention since it was Quirt who decided to make this thread about abortion, not me. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| OperaTenor | Sep 7 2006, 10:41 AM Post #84 |
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Pisa-Carp
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It, thank you for the compliment, but perhaps I am indeed naive, because I wasn't aware of that. Can you cite any examples? If this is indeed the case, then I hvae some hard thinking to do. |
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| Aqua Letifer | Sep 7 2006, 10:43 AM Post #85 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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"Torture violates the basic dignity of the human person that all religions, in their highest ideals, hold dear. Any policies that permit torture and inhumane treatment are shocking and morally intolerable." - Cardinal McCarrick IT, I really don't see how the Catholic view on torture can be anything but evil. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| Rick Zimmer | Sep 7 2006, 10:46 AM Post #86 |
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Fulla-Carp
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That's fine, thumps. You can add your own interpretation to my stand if you wish. As I said, I knew you would. This is, after all, one of your hot button issues. I don't understand your leap of logic for clearly there are many actions which you and I would both agree should be allowed and the government should stay out of, but which neither of us would consider moral or would do ourselves. So I don't see the logic that equates saying the government should allow something with condoning it. Apparently though, in this instance at least, you do. So be it. |
| [size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size] | |
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| John Jacob Jingoism Smith | Sep 7 2006, 11:39 AM Post #87 |
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Middle Aged Carp
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IT, You wrote: "I am not arguing that the ends justify the means. As for your sentiments, I agree and respect them. But I do not equate the right to torture as a civilization sinking to moral depravity, any more than the right to incarcerate or execute in capital cases causes that to happen." Yes, but first of all, people in capital cases get due process. And capital punishment is punishment for a crime that has been (apparently) proved they committed. And it's not supposed to be cruel and unusual. That is an extremely different thing than intentionally inflicting cruel and unusual torture as an interrogation technique with no fair trial. Plus I don't see anything in the history of governments or religions torturing people that in any way points to it as being in agreement with the spirit of America or the Constitution. It is, in fact, a practice that it seemed very clear to me we all reviled (even at the highest levels of government). We actively campaigned against other countries doing it. Until Bush took office, and 'something happened' where suddenly it became OK to consider it. (But it didn't happen to me.) Secondly, it does happen that I do not agree with the death penalty. It's not because some people don't deserve death. It's because there are too many people wrongly convicted of crimes they didn't do. And while there are only a few of them compared to people who legitimately deserved conviction, I am not willing to sacrifice the lives of innocents. I think it's more evil to kill innocents than it is to spare the lives of those who have done things deserving of the death penalty. Thirdly, thanks for keeping this discussion civil. |
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Jingoism You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do. Anne Lamott | |
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| QuirtEvans | Sep 7 2006, 11:54 AM Post #88 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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It is true, I was the one who brought up abortion. Because I see conservatives taking a moral stand to protect the innocent "life" of a fetus, but not taking a similar moral stand with an Iraqi farmer captured by mistake. The "life" of a fetus is clearly more valuable to them than the "life" of an innocent farmer. And remember, so that we are comparing apples to apples, I limited the question to stem cell research. So that, in both situations, there is the opportunity to save thousands of lives. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| ivorythumper | Sep 7 2006, 11:54 AM Post #89 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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Research on Fort Lafayette during the Civil War, where the North would torture dissenters by suspend prisoners by the wrists and using water tortures. (See Mark Nealy, The Fate of Liberty). |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| OperaTenor | Sep 7 2006, 12:07 PM Post #90 |
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Pisa-Carp
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Fort Lafayette seems to be relatively isolated(nevertheless inexcusable) up to the past 50 years or so, when the CIA started researching coersion methods, apparently. Cruel Science - The Long Shadow of CIA Torture Research Yup, I've got me some long, hard thinking to do. |
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| ivorythumper | Sep 7 2006, 12:08 PM Post #91 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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I assume you mean to say that "I really don't see how from the Catholic view on torture one can view it as anything but evil." The Catholic view on torture is not evil. And I would not expect the Church to say anything but that. There is no "wink wink" concession that these things occur but that the Church must be seen to condemn it. The Church does teach against it under the broad rubric of the dignity of man. I have not seen a principled argument against torture -- McCarrick's argument makes a rather sweeping generalization about the absolute dignity of the individual. If that were the case, then on what grounds can one be incarcerated? "Incarceration violates the basic dignity of the human person that all religions, in their highest ideals, hold dear. Any policies that permit incarceration are shocking and morally intolerable." Which is why one of my principles for thinking through this is "b) With the right to act freely comes the responsibility to act morally (justly, ethically, etc). The one who will not act morally forfeits a degree of rights in proportion to the gravity and/or significance of the offence." Throughout our system there is a principle of proportionality that is (ideally) reflected in the punishments and sanctions and legitimate limits of authority of the State. Some offenses only demand a reprimand, some a fine, some incarceration, some capital punishment. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| Mikhailoh | Sep 7 2006, 12:09 PM Post #92 |
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
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I would.. it's a no-brainer. |
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Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball | |
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| QuirtEvans | Sep 7 2006, 12:15 PM Post #93 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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McCarrick doesn't talk about the absolute dignity of the individual. He mentions "basic dignity" in discussing torture, and then decries "policies that permit torture and inhumane treatment". Incarceration of the guilty would not seem to me to be a policy that permits torture or inhumane treatment. I don't think you can substitute "incarceration" for "torture" in the quote, any more than you could substitute "the comfy chair". It is, of course, just a little ironic for the Catholic Church to decry torture, but, as I said in another thread, the world progresses. By the way, has the Catholic Church ever officially sanctioned capital punishment? If it has not, that aspect of your argument is diminished. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| Aqua Letifer | Sep 7 2006, 12:23 PM Post #94 |
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ZOOOOOM!
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IT, I don't think that one can exchange torture for incarceration in McCarrick's example. I would like to see how he defines "basic dignities", but I interpret that as respecting someone as a human being. When someone is incarcerated, it is because their actions have broken the social contract they have with society. I won't get into what the purpose of incarceration is, but you are there if you have broken a law of some kind. However, you are still treated as a human being, and even though you have lost some of your freedoms, you still retain some basic rights the State is not allowed to revoke. You still retain their human dignity. Terrorists who withhold key information that could save lives have also committed crimes, but when you begin to torture them, you have failed to respect their human dignity. They are no longer treated as people. They are treated as object, and a means to an end. That, in my understanding, is some thing no person has the right to do under any circumstances. |
| I cite irreconcilable differences. | |
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| JBryan | Sep 7 2006, 12:54 PM Post #95 |
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I am the grey one
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This is why I have said that I want torture to be safe, legal and rare. |
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"Any man who would make an X rated movie should be forced to take his daughter to see it". - John Wayne There is a line we cross when we go from "I will believe it when I see it" to "I will see it when I believe it". Henry II: I marvel at you after all these years. Still like a democratic drawbridge: going down for everybody. Eleanor: At my age there's not much traffic anymore. From The Lion in Winter. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Sep 7 2006, 12:59 PM Post #96 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Out of curiosity, because I honestly don't recall you ever mentioning it ... is that your position on abortion, too? |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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| ivorythumper | Sep 7 2006, 01:13 PM Post #97 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. -- Edmund Burke. There is no leap in logic, as much as you would hope to argue for that. You are a political person, Rick. As such you have a moral obligation to promote justice, and to protect the weak and vulnerable and the innocent, and to support political initiatives that do so. You refuse to support the defense of the unborn because you've decided that there is some sort of privileged moral sphere in which human beings can be killed wantonly. Hence you couch it in terms of "I want the government out of mandating moral decisions on it. I support the individual's right to make her own moral decisions." But in virtually every other area, as petty as speed limits in school zones you presumably do want the government to be mandating moral decisions about how fast one ought to drive and probably do not support an individual's right to make one's own moral decision about how fast to drive. So perversely as long as its not that important you are all in favor of legislation and control. That to me is a leap of logic on your part. So be it. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Sep 7 2006, 01:17 PM Post #98 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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For the record I am also opposed to torturing innocent Iraqi farmers. Perhaps you can point me to some instances of conservatives who are in favor of torturing innocent Iraqi farmers, and I will join you in condeming them and will sign a petition opposing any legislation that would mandate torturing innocent Iraqi farmers. But I suspect that you can't, and that this is a red herring. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| ivorythumper | Sep 7 2006, 01:31 PM Post #99 |
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
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The Catholic Church has not officially sanctioned capital punishment, nor has it officially sanctioned speeding tickets or taxes or any other specifics of legislation for any sovereign nation (at least, as far as I know, since the collapse of the Papal States). The traditional teaching has been that the State has the right to execute for grave reasons such as the protection of the common good. This is still the position of the Church, with the caveat that in the modern affluent nation with means to incarcerate permanently, the circumstance that would adversely affect the common good are such that capital punishment is no longer a strong moral option. The reason that "incarceration" can be substituted for "torture" has to do with the way the individual is framed against the society regarding rights and responsibilities. If the government has the power to incarcerate for just cause, or to capitally punish for just cause, then under the aspect of protecting the common good and securing the safety of the populace from external threat I do not see on what grounds it can be claimed that there is no permissible right for the Government to extract information through invasive interrogation under some circumstances. Like JB -- safe, legal and rare -- but unlike elective abortion. |
| The dogma lives loudly within me. | |
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| QuirtEvans | Sep 7 2006, 01:37 PM Post #100 |
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I Owe It All To John D'Oh
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Not a red herring at all. Because we know for a certainty that we've locked up innocent Iraqis (we've admitted it and let them go ... years later), and some of us are willing to torture before we go through the unpleasant process of determining guilt. |
| It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010. | |
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