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Torture is Bad; The Pentagon Finally Acknowledges
Topic Started: Sep 6 2006, 09:13 AM (1,280 Views)
Rick Zimmer
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apple
Sep 7 2006, 08:03 AM
here's a hypothetical...

suppose you knew the 'enemy' would torture your compatriots to extract information.. would your opinion of administering torture be affected?

Leaving aside the moral reasons, this is one of the pragmatic reasons that civilized nations reject torture.



[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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Larry
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Mmmmmmm, pie!
If my child's life was in danger, and I even *thought* that torturing the person involved in putting my child's life in danger had a chance of getting my child out of danger, I would without hesitation torture that person until my child was safe. There would be no limits placed on the torture, and it would be swift, aggressive, and leave permanent harm. Protecting my own is not a subject where I'm willing to entertain lofty ideological theories. Put any member of my family in mortal danger, and you'll regret you ever tangled with me. In fact, if I happened to pass by as one of those who wouldn't protect their child by torture was in this situation, I'd do it to save your child too.

Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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John Jacob Jingoism Smith
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IT,

I am not a doctrinaire Christian, but I attempt to understand and follow the words and examples of Jesus. I will tell you point blank that I have little use for what men have done with religion.

To answer your query, one such as yourself can argue that the ends justifies the means. But I don't go that way. To me there is a level of moral depravity one should never sink to. Throughout history millions of innocents have been tortured. I do not think we as a society should sink to this level of evil. This power is ALWAYS abused. Innocents ALWAYS suffer.

As I said, it's just too dark for me. It feels like evil and I believe that it is.

And when Bush people started begging for permission to torture is when they finally lost me, totally and forever. That is not MY America.

Jingoism

You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.
Anne Lamott
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Phlebas
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Larry
Sep 7 2006, 07:22 AM
it would be swift, aggressive, and leave permanent harm.

Pssst...I think slow is usually the way to go - torture wise, that is.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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Larry
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Quote:
 
Pssst...I think slow is usually the way to go - torture wise, that is.


Having administered it on a couple of occasions, I can assure you that swift, aggressive torture works far better.....
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Phlebas
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Larry
Sep 7 2006, 07:33 AM
Quote:
 
Pssst...I think slow is usually the way to go - torture wise, that is.


Having administered it on a couple of occasions, I can assure you that swift, aggressive torture works far better.....

I have no choice but to defer to your experience.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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Mikhailoh
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If you want trouble, find yourself a redhead
Now we are discussing under what circumstances we would find it acceptable to convert to Islam?

Well, hell. Let's all just get out our prayer rugs and point our heads toward Mecca. After all, Islam is no threat at all.

As long as you're not Jewish and you do as they dictate. Let's see.. what historical character does that remind me of?
Once in his life, every man is entitled to fall madly in love with a gorgeous redhead - Lucille Ball
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OperaTenor
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If I don't strive to exemplify the highest morals and integrity to my child, then what good am I as a parent?

Don't think I made my previous statement lightly.



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Larry
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Quote:
 
If I don't strive to exemplify the highest morals and integrity to my child, then what good am I as a parent?


If you have no children left to parent, what good was your moral lesson?

In a situation where your child's life is at risk, your highest moral obligation is to protect your child.
Of the Pokatwat Tribe

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Hobie
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OT, JJJ Smith

Thank you.
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Radu
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OperaTenor
Sep 7 2006, 07:51 PM
If I don't strive to exemplify the highest morals and integrity to my child, then what good am I as a parent?


This "simplistic" way of "thinking" is more adequate to kids in the fourth grade. It sounds soooooooo just...........so likely to get approval of the teacher. "Well done, Bart !"
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The modern media has made cretins out of so many people that they're not interested in reality any more, unless it's reality TV (Jean D'eaux)
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Hobie
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Radu

Are you saying that parents shouldn't lead by example?

What are you saying?

I'm sure we all could concoct a plot in which you were faced with the decision to torture somebody to save your child. It's not very realistic, though...nonsense, really.

The point is that ethics and morals do not get handed to us by our president...they start at home.

I applaud anyone who raises their children to believe in the power of non-violence.



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OperaTenor
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Suppose Abraham had taken the position of "the life of my child, at all costs"?



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Rick Zimmer
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Radu
Sep 7 2006, 10:07 AM
OperaTenor
Sep 7 2006, 07:51 PM
If I don't strive to exemplify the highest morals and integrity to my child, then what good am I as a parent?


This "simplistic" way of "thinking" is more adequate to kids in the fourth grade. It sounds soooooooo just...........so likely to get approval of the teacher. "Well done, Bart !"

Since when are moral standards to be ridiculed as childish?

It seems to me that the right is becoming increasing relativistic in its moral standards as it tries to justify what is going on in the Middle East. All we hear over and over again is "Well, morals are good, but when one needs to actually achieve something, they have to be thrown in the trash -- or at least rationalized."

Have you no firm moral standards Radu? Or are you simply a pragmatist who will do anything if it gets yoiu what you want?
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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QuirtEvans
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Rick Zimmer
Sep 7 2006, 12:22 PM
Radu
Sep 7 2006, 10:07 AM
OperaTenor
Sep 7 2006, 07:51 PM
If I don't strive to exemplify the highest morals and integrity to my child, then what good am I as a parent?


This "simplistic" way of "thinking" is more adequate to kids in the fourth grade. It sounds soooooooo just...........so likely to get approval of the teacher. "Well done, Bart !"

Since when are moral standards to be ridiculed as childish?

It seems to me that the right is becoming increasing relativistic in its moral standards as it tries to justify what is going on in the Middle East. All we hear over and over again is "Well, morals are good, but when one needs to actually achieve something, they have to be thrown in the trash -- or at least rationalized."

Have you no firm moral standards Radu? Or are you simply a pragmatist who will do anything if it gets yoiu what you want?

That's not fair, Rick.

The right has very firm, unbending moral principles.

When it comes to abortion.

If we're talking about a potentially innocent Iraqi farmer, by all means, lock him up, torture him, if it means saving innocent lives. Because one potentially innocent life can be sacrificed for the greater good.

But when we are talking about an embryo ... which is at least arguably not a human being, and which, to the best we know, cannot feel anything ... then, by all means, protect that "life" at all costs. Even if we could save hundreds of thousands of lives through stem cell research. In this case, the greater good be damned.

Consistent moral principles, indeed.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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The 89th Key
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Here's an example.

Answer this.

If you came into your house, and a man was standing there and he told you (or you knew with a high degree of certainty) that he knew where your wife and kids were. He kidnapped them and they will die if you don't get the information out of him.

Would you or would you not support the use of any and all tactics to get the information out of him, with torture being the last resort?

I don't think "morality" and "integrity" have anything to do with it. I take that back...I think it would be immoral to let innocent people die simply because you don't want to "hurt" the evil person who is infact doing the hurting himself!

Again, IMO, it is more immoral to sit back and let innocent people die than it is to harm one evil person.

It's a simple choice, if you know for a fact or a high enough level of certainty that someone knows critical info, what do you choose:

1) Let many innocent people die
2) Let one evil person suffer (not even die)
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OperaTenor
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OperaTenor
Sep 7 2006, 09:22 AM
Suppose Abraham had taken the position of "the life of my child, at all costs"?

Again I ask.



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Phlebas
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There's a lot of silliness going on here. First, someone says they know from personal experience that fast torture beats slow torture. Then people say they would not use whatever means they can to defend their family. I find it hard to believe any of this.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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QuirtEvans
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The 89th Key
Sep 7 2006, 12:29 PM
Here's an example.

Answer this.

If you came into your house, and a man was standing there and he told you (or you knew with a high degree of certainty) that he knew where your wife and kids were. He kidnapped them and they will die if you don't get the information out of him.

Would you or would you not support the use of any and all tactics to get the information out of him, with torture being the last resort?

I don't think "morality" and "integrity" have anything to do with it. I take that back...I think it would be immoral to let innocent people die simply because you don't want to "hurt" the evil person who is infact doing the hurting himself!

Again, IMO, it is more immoral to sit back and let innocent people die than it is to harm one evil person.

It's a simple choice, if you know for a fact or a high enough level of certainty that someone knows critical info, what do you choose:

1) Let many innocent people die
2) Let one evil person suffer (not even die)

Ah yes, a realistic hypothetical that occurs many times, every day.

Suppose a dolphin jumps out of the ocean and lands in your lap ...

In the real world, you never know for sure. You never know for sure whether he's evil, and you certainly never know that he has information that will save innocent lives.

So, let's deal with the real world, instead of absurd, never-will-happen-except-in-a-Harrison-Ford-movie hypotheticals.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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QuirtEvans
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Phlebas
Sep 7 2006, 12:34 PM
There's a lot of silliness going on here. First, someone says they know from personal experience that fast torture beats slow torture. Then people say they would not use whatever means they can to defend their family. I find it hard to believe any of this.

I'll answer that, Phlebas.

In those circumstances, I'd probably do it. And then I'd probably regret it the rest of my life, and wish that someone had stopped me.
It would be unwise to underestimate what large groups of ill-informed people acting together can achieve. -- John D'Oh, January 14, 2010.
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Phlebas
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QuirtEvans
Sep 7 2006, 09:36 AM
Phlebas
Sep 7 2006, 12:34 PM
There's a lot of silliness going on here. First, someone says they know from personal experience that fast torture beats slow torture. Then people say they would not use whatever means they can to defend their family. I find it hard to believe any of this.

I'll answer that, Phlebas.

In those circumstances, I'd probably do it. And then I'd probably regret it the rest of my life, and wish that someone had stopped me.

You mean you wouldn't brag about it on an Internet forum? How quaint.
Random FML: Today, I was fired by my boss in front of my coworkers. It would have been nice if I could have left the building before they started celebrating. FML

The founding of the bulk of the world's nation states post 1914 is based on self-defined nationalisms. The bulk of those national movements involve territory that was ethnically mixed. The foundation of many of those nation states involved population movements in the aftermath. When the only one that is repeatedly held up as unjust and unjustifiable is the Zionist project, the term anti-semitism may very well be appropriate. - P*D


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ivorythumper
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Rick Zimmer
Sep 7 2006, 07:34 AM

And yet, when asked if they would agree to be converted to evil by condoning torture, these same people justify torture.

That presumes torture is an intrinsic evil. You are begging the question.

Have you been converted to evil in that you condone abortion?
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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ivorythumper
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I am so adjective that I verb nouns!
John Jacob Jingoism Smith
Sep 7 2006, 08:24 AM
IT,

I am not a doctrinaire Christian, but I attempt to understand and follow the words and examples of Jesus. I will tell you point blank that I have little use for what men have done with religion.

To answer your query, one such as yourself can argue that the ends justifies the means. But I don't go that way. To me there is a level of moral depravity one should never sink to. Throughout history millions of innocents have been tortured. I do not think we as a society should sink to this level of evil. This power is ALWAYS abused. Innocents ALWAYS suffer.

As I said, it's just too dark for me. It feels like evil and I believe that it is.

And when Bush people started begging for permission to torture is when they finally lost me, totally and forever. That is not MY America.

I am not arguing that the ends justify the means.

As for your sentiments, I agree and respect them. But I do not equate the right to torture as a civilization sinking to moral depravity, any more than the right to incarcerate or execute in capital cases causes that to happen.
The dogma lives loudly within me.
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OperaTenor
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Phlebas
Sep 7 2006, 09:34 AM
There's a lot of silliness going on here. First, someone says they know from personal experience that fast torture beats slow torture. Then people say they would not use whatever means they can to defend their family. I find it hard to believe any of this.

Torture is being conducted in the name of the United States as we speak, and has been for several years. The perpetrators are currently attempting to rationalize it be legalizing it. I never thought I'd live to see it occurring in MY country.

I don't think much of this discussion is silliness at all.

PS. If you[rhetorical] don't think waterboarding qualifies as torture, why don't you go out and have it done to you, then come back and tell us all how much fun it was.



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Rick Zimmer
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ivorythumper
Sep 7 2006, 10:44 AM
Rick Zimmer
Sep 7 2006, 07:34 AM

And yet, when asked if they would agree to be converted to evil by condoning torture, these same people justify torture.

That presumes torture is an intrinsic evil. You are begging the question.

Have you been converted to evil in that you condone abortion?

I don't condone abortion and never have.
[size=4]Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul -- Benedict XVI[/size]
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