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Posted without political comment...
Topic Started: Sep 6 2006, 03:26 AM (666 Views)
Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
MP,

As I said, I am not talking about dedication, drive, or motivation. Everyone has the skills, ability, and capacity to be educated in some manner. There are several different types of learning, MP. Ask an educator. Not everyone may be able to sit with you in your physics classes, but that makes no person intellectually inferior. Do you know what a bowline knot is used for? Do you know what dried dirt on autumn leaves can tell you? Can you spot-weld? Intellect is too great and broad a thing to be so severely limited to what's taught in your classrooms. There are many ways to fill your head, and EVERYONE has the capacity to excel in some kid of learning. Everyone has the right to pursue an opportunity.

You may think that's the way it is, but all I can see is that you sell people short.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
I've said this before, MP, but just wait until the Conservatives get elected. I doubt you'll notice a whole lot of difference, except that possibly Britain will become isolated from the EU, and lose much of it's influence in Europe. IMO, the Tories are an even bigger bunch of self-serving scumbags than Labour, and that's saying something. If I were you, I'd vote for the monster raving loonies, at least they're honest.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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***musical princess***
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HOLY CARP!!!
Aqua Letifer
Sep 6 2006, 10:00 PM
MP,

As I said, I am not talking about dedication, drive, or motivation. Everyone has the skills, ability, and capacity to be educated in some manner. There are several different types of learning, MP. Ask an educator. Not everyone may be able to sit with you in your physics classes, but that makes no person intellectually inferior. Do you know what a bowline knot is used for? Do you know what dried dirt on autumn leaves can tell you? Can you spot-weld? Intellect is too great and broad a thing to be so severely limited to what's taught in your classrooms. There are many ways to fill your head, and EVERYONE has the capacity to excel in some kid of learning. Everyone has the right to pursue an opportunity.

You may think that's the way it is, but all I can see is that you sell people short.

Aqua, have you not been reading what i am writing, for Gods sake.

Read back a few posts.

As i said, there are shortagesof so many things in Britain these days. Jobs that require the intellect you just described. You don't go to univesity to do that kindof learning.

You think i sell people short? Well, think that if you want. I'mnot going to go out of my way to try and change your mind when it seems like you are not even open to listening to what i am saying and the point i am trying to get across.

x
x Caroline x
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Riley
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HOLY CARP!!!
MP, where do you stand on the political spectrum?

I'm curious, as I don't think i have ever seen you involved in a political argument here.
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***musical princess***
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Riley
Sep 6 2006, 10:49 PM
MP, where do you stand on the political spectrum?

I'm curious, as I don't think i have ever seen you involved in a political argument here.

You've never seen me get involved because i purposefully go out of my way to avoid political threads as much as i can.

I have such strong political views which alot of people don't agree with that, on a friendly forum like this, it is easier sometimes to just shoot the fook up rather than get in flamewars with so many people. I'm not a confrontational person, but if someone questions or tells me i'm wrong or stupid for believing what i do, i wont just sit back and let it happen. I'll defend what i believe in and will happily explain it to anyone who wants to try and understand, but i refuse to just argue on and on with someone who wont even listen or understand what i am trying to say. Which is why on a forum with so many older and 'wiser' dominant personalities, it's easier to just sit back and watch the fireworks sometimes, rather than being the fuel.

x
x Caroline x
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Riley
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HOLY CARP!!!
***musical princess***
Sep 6 2006, 05:54 PM
Riley
Sep 6 2006, 10:49 PM
MP, where do you stand on the political spectrum?

I'm curious, as I don't think i have ever seen you involved in a political argument here.

You've never seen me get involved because i purposefully go out of my way to avoid political threads as much as i can.

I have such strong political views which alot of people don't agree with that, on a friendly forum like this, it is easier sometimes to just shoot the fook up rather than get in flamewars with so many people. I'm not a confrontational person, but if someone questions or tells me i'm wrong or stupid for believing what i do, i wont just sit back and let it happen. I'll defend what i believe in and will happily explain it to anyone who wants to try and understand, but i refuse to just argue on and on with someone who wont even listen or understand what i am trying to say. Which is why on a forum with so many older and 'wiser' dominant personalities, it's easier to just sit back and watch the fireworks sometimes, rather than being the fuel.

x

That wasn't my question.
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***musical princess***
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HOLY CARP!!!
I already said where i stand politically - conservative.

x
x Caroline x
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Daniel\
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Fulla-Carp
The 89th Key
Sep 6 2006, 12:17 PM
I think what we learn in High School is the "education" everyone should receive and are entitled to.

I agree with this. I also agree that 1. tuition has risen and 2. the cost of financing has risen.


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Jane D'Oh
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Fulla-Carp
A question MP... How would you reduce the numbers of people going through university? Are you talking about cutting grants/benefits across the board or would you cut them for specific courses? Or would you maintain benefits as they are and increase entry requirements?
Pfft.
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
MP,

Yes, I have been reading what you've been posting, or else we would not be having this conversation. My posts are in response to these types of statements:

Quote:
 
No, everyone should not go to uni.

A society cannot function with only doctors and lawyers. Who will clean public toilets? Who will collect refuge bins? Yeah, they're not glamorous jobs but someone has to do them in order for things to keep going!


Quote:
 
And, without being nasty, not everyone is capable of being educated.


Quote:
 
And yes, it's true, some people genuinly don't have the actual ability and capacity to study a course to such a degree of difficulty. And that's not nasty, that's a fact of life.


From this, I conclude you're saying that since not everyone has the ability to learn from a university experience, these people should not go to a university, and that they should be the ones cleaning public toilets, and collecting the refuge bins.

I myself am saying, repeatedly, that given the diversity of subjects taught, everyone has the ability to learn from a university experience in some way, that everyone should be given the opportunity to go to a university, and even people who clean public toilets and collect refuge bins could "have what it takes" and learn from the experience.

That's why I'm claiming you yourself have a sense of entitlement, and you sell people short.
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
Judging by many of the more traditional members of the Conservative party, it isn't actually intelligence which should mark one out for bog-cleaning duty, but rather a lack of breeding. Let's face it, many of the knobs who manage to get into Oxford and Cambridge after spending time at some of the more prestigious British public schools (note for lovers of language mis-use: in England a 'public school' is actually a posh private school), don't have two brain-cells to rub together. Indeed, they would probably find bog-cleaning rather burdensome on their intellect, since quite a few of them would undoubtedly struggle to wipe their own arses, much less actually manage to turn up for work in the morning.

Not that I'm bitter, you understand.

The fact:
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THe fiction?
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What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Horace
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HOLY CARP!!!
From a coldly quantitative perspective, education is only good for an economy if the educated people are more productive because of that education than they otherwise would have been. And they have to be significantly more productive to boot since they have to make up for the time lost to full time education. There is a point of diminishing returns for education and that point is probably right after high school for many. The other purpose university serves is to separate the achievers from the non-achievers (relatively speaking) so that the more intellectually demanding jobs can go to those who would do better at them, but this purpose is diluted if everybody goes to college.

Im reminded of career grad students who get a free pass of respect whenever anybody asks them what they're doing with their life, as long as they're still in school. In reality they shouldn't necessarily be paid any more respect than the average underemployed bohemian.
As a good person, I implore you to do as I, a good person, do. Be good. Do NOT be bad. If you see bad, end bad. End it in yourself, and end it in others. By any means necessary, the good must conquer the bad. Good people know this. Do you know this? Are you good?
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garrett
Middle Aged Carp
College is not for everybody. Not everyone will be able to get through the coursework and earn a degree. However, if only those whose parents are well off enough are able to try out for college then there is potentially much untapped ability.

I don't see a problem with making it possible for anyone to go to college. So long as the degree of difficulty is not toned down so that anyone is able to make it through a degree plan. It is quite elitist to assume that only those whose parents are able to put them through college are deserving of the opportunity.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
Blair is Ok, I guess.

The UK needs someone new who won't bend over backwards for Bush as much.

Also, uni should be available to everyone, but it is not for everyone. Not all people can make it through uni.
And how are you today?
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sue
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Aqua Letifer
Sep 6 2006, 04:10 PM
I myself am saying, repeatedly, that given the diversity of subjects taught, everyone has the ability to learn from a university experience in some way, that everyone should be given the opportunity to go to a university, and even people who clean public toilets and collect refuge bins could "have what it takes" and learn from the experience.


I agree with this completely. While not everyone will follow a career path based on university courses, everyone should have the oppportunity to expand their minds in some way. If we only educate for employability, we are going to lose a lot. A cultureless, workerbee society.
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
LWpianistin
Sep 7 2006, 07:08 AM
The UK needs someone new who won't bend over backwards for Bush as much.

The Conservatives certainly won't bend over backwards as far for the US as Blair did. The main reason for this is it's just about physically impossible to do so when you're doing what they will be doing to whoever is President at that time. It's called a 'special relationship'.

Cigar anyone?
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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The 89th Key
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LWpianistin
Sep 7 2006, 07:08 AM
Blair is Ok, I guess.

The UK needs someone new who won't bend over backwards for Bush as much.

Also, uni should be available to everyone, but it is not for everyone. Not all people can make it through uni.

1) The strong US-British relationship is a very good thing. I would hope leaders of both nations stick together so strongly, regardless of politics, whenever they both agree with each other. Blair sticking for what he thinks is right and staying loyal to a strong ally (US) is admirable, especially when it's considered unpopular.

2) Correct me if I'm wrong, but "uni" is available to everyone right now. It's whether or not each person decides it's worth it to work hard, save, etc. Everyone can go to college. Everyone.
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Jane D'Oh
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Fulla-Carp
I think that whether people chose to go to university in the UK is to a large extent determined by the high school that they attend.

There is a basic assumption in many high schools that you will apply to a university - and the only difficulty is in choosing which course. Equally, in other schools the assumptions is that the majority of students will not go on to univeristy.

The difference would be in the geographical location of the school - in other words, what 'class background' the students come from.

So the tendency would be that the rich attend university - because it is expected of them - and that the poor have to break a lot more barriers to get there - because it is not expected of them. It is after all, a lot easier to do exactly as your friends are doing.

I guess what I'm saying is that anyone could work and save and get a university education - but for some people that would be a lot harder than for others.
Pfft.
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LWpianistin
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HOLY CARP!!!
The 89th Key
Sep 7 2006, 01:19 PM
LWpianistin
Sep 7 2006, 07:08 AM
Blair is Ok, I guess.

The UK needs someone new who won't bend over backwards for Bush as much.

Also, uni should be available to everyone, but it is not for everyone. Not all people can make it through uni.

1) The strong US-British relationship is a very good thing. I would hope leaders of both nations stick together so strongly, regardless of politics, whenever they both agree with each other. Blair sticking for what he thinks is right and staying loyal to a strong ally (US) is admirable, especially when it's considered unpopular.

2) Correct me if I'm wrong, but "uni" is available to everyone right now. It's whether or not each person decides it's worth it to work hard, save, etc. Everyone can go to college. Everyone.

1) It is good for some people, but not all. Britain and America should remain allies, but it should not be in the form of Britain's PM being Bush's puppy dog.

2) I know uni (the "" is not necessary) is available to everyone. That's why I said it. It is not FOR everyone, though.
And how are you today?
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John D'Oh
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MAMIL
The 89th Key
Sep 7 2006, 01:19 PM
1) The strong US-British relationship is a very good thing. I would hope leaders of both nations stick together so strongly, regardless of politics, whenever they both agree with each other. Blair sticking for what he thinks is right and staying loyal to a strong ally (US) is admirable, especially when it's considered unpopular.

My perception of the US/British 'special relationship' is that it's rather one-sided.
What do you mean "we", have you got a mouse in your pocket?
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Aqua Letifer
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ZOOOOOM!
John D'Oh
Sep 7 2006, 10:56 AM
The 89th Key
Sep 7 2006, 01:19 PM
1) The strong US-British relationship is a very good thing. I would hope leaders of both nations stick together so strongly, regardless of politics, whenever they both agree with each other. Blair sticking for what he thinks is right and staying loyal to a strong ally (US) is admirable, especially when it's considered unpopular.

My perception of the US/British 'special relationship' is that it's rather one-sided.

Whatcha mean? Just because we owe you guys a couple hundred years' back taxes doesn't mean we can't be friends. :biggrin:
I cite irreconcilable differences.
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The 89th Key
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LWpianistin
Sep 7 2006, 02:00 PM
The 89th Key
Sep 7 2006, 01:19 PM
LWpianistin
Sep 7 2006, 07:08 AM
Blair is Ok, I guess.

The UK needs someone new who won't bend over backwards for Bush as much.

Also, uni should be available to everyone, but it is not for everyone. Not all people can make it through uni.

1) The strong US-British relationship is a very good thing. I would hope leaders of both nations stick together so strongly, regardless of politics, whenever they both agree with each other. Blair sticking for what he thinks is right and staying loyal to a strong ally (US) is admirable, especially when it's considered unpopular.

2) Correct me if I'm wrong, but "uni" is available to everyone right now. It's whether or not each person decides it's worth it to work hard, save, etc. Everyone can go to college. Everyone.

1) It is good for some people, but not all. Britain and America should remain allies, but it should not be in the form of Britain's PM being Bush's puppy dog.

2) I know uni (the "" is not necessary) is available to everyone. That's why I said it. It is not FOR everyone, though.

1) How is he Bush's puppy dog?

2) The " " are most certainly necessary! I've only heard British and Canadians say "uni", and, IIRC, you are neither. :D

3) Using numbers makes this whole debate thing a lot easier.

4) Please disregard points 3 and 4.
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The 89th Key
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Aqua Letifer
Sep 7 2006, 04:05 PM
John D'Oh
Sep 7 2006, 10:56 AM
The 89th Key
Sep 7 2006, 01:19 PM
1) The strong US-British relationship is a very good thing. I would hope leaders of both nations stick together so strongly, regardless of politics, whenever they both agree with each other. Blair sticking for what he thinks is right and staying loyal to a strong ally (US) is admirable, especially when it's considered unpopular.

My perception of the US/British 'special relationship' is that it's rather one-sided.

Whatcha mean? Just because we owe you guys a couple hundred years' back taxes doesn't mean we can't be friends. :biggrin:

:lol: :lol:
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Riley
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HOLY CARP!!!
The 89th Key
Sep 7 2006, 05:41 PM
2) The " " are most certainly necessary! I've only heard British and Canadians say "uni", and, IIRC, you are neither. :D

Doesn't she live with her dad in Britain for part of the year?
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dolmansaxlil
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HOLY CARP!!!
I believe everyone, regardless of financial situation, should have the opportunity to go on to post-secondary education of some sort. For some, that's a work-study program. For some, that's an apprenticeship. For some, that's a trades oriented college course. For some, it's an academic university.

It should be based entirely on ability, skills, and work ethic. Money shouldn't enter the picture.
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